Aibu to think that my kids aren’t coming back?

[SeaOfDespair]

I had my girls removed last month and it’s been a very traumatic experience. My family are so far away, my friends have dwindled away and I’m stuck looking at these 4 walls.

I’m seeing a private child psychologist and doing some work with him. He understands how harsh the system can be. I’m doing 2 different parenting courses online. I’m paying for all of this myself and has been a bit of a struggle recently.

My solicitor just tells me to go along with whatever they want. I’ve ticked one thing off the list, but they’re not forthcoming with starting their own assessments. Social worker is either sick, or can’t be bothered.

My youngest has arrived to contact with bruising to her face 4 times. She is cruising, but never managed to be bruised within my care. My elder one seems sort of happy, but is having a lot of tantrums and isn’t able to communicate with me.

From them wanting to keep them at home on an order, their original intentions until the court hearing, to pretending I don’t exist. They didn’t even turn up to the meeting last week. No apology given. No notification of cancellation.

From a case of closing ranks to keeping the case open, it never did surprise me that they applied for a court order. My social worker’s reasoning? I don’t agree with their concerns, so there needs to be a care order.

Am I being unreasonable to think I don’t stand a chance in hell of getting them back, if they’re not willing to even bother working with me?

I understand entirely what you're saying, but it does feel like they're frustrating the path to my eldest daughter's diagnosis. I don't feel like they've put the girls' best interests first. My eldest daughter does need more support and I'm entirely open to working with them on it, because it would actually be easier getting somewhere with their support.

As another poster said, nobody is going to offer an assessment for autism at age 3.

This is reality.

Meanwhile, you should send your DD to nursery, you need to arrange for her to start school at 4, ask for help from the GP and HV if she is having problems potty training (and try to follow their advice). And you need to co-operate with SS's suggestions - about speech therapy for instance - with no faffing around with talk of taxis, etc. That is not what SS are there for. They are not your mother.

I think you only want to hear that you are right and the system is out to get you. And I think other posters jumping on the bandwagon are probably not helping you to become more self aware.
You’ve had some good advice here, which I hope helps in the situation
I agree with this.

I want the OP to get the resolution she seeks, but that won't happen whilst clinging to posters confirming her "whole system and mutliple different people in multiple different agencies are part of a conspiracy against me" view.

All this "but technically what is neglect... Reflecting means different things to different people..." all seems a way of creating philosophical knots as a way of avoiding accepting the current situation and accepting the agency there to make changes.

OP needs offline support from those who can discuss the situation in full and offer critical insight, not people online saying "yeah the systems awful and people love putting kids in care for no reason".

The social work course is very limited in some respects. Lots of legal stuff. Very little practical stuff about children in there. I've had some conversations with social workers (before I've had kids) and it was obvious that their expectations of parents just were not realistic in terms of what they could reasonably do every day.

OP, are you something other than white? The only time I've seen these calculated attacks is when the person is non white and/or dirt poor.

my DC was born five weeks early as a result of pre-eclampsia. We were kept in hospital for a week, then went home. Down the line, my non-attendance of ante natal classes was used as an example that I was at risk of not engaging with professionals and did not want to socialise with other parents. My solicitor was able to point out that the classes were scheduled to start the week AFTER he was born. Which information was available for all to see, in my medical notes, the HV notes, the mid-wife notes - but it was "mis-interpreted" and could have had an impact on the Judge's view.

This is the type of thing I've seen time and time again. Miscommunication between public sector departments which leads to false documentation. It's funny that you mention AN classes because that was used against a mum I know but her local hospital doesn't give AN classes to subsequent mums, only FTM. The social worker (mid twenties,white, from outside London) thought AN classes were parenting classes rather than focused on birth and breastfeeding.

She also used to refer to midwives as nurses. I was birth partner to mum as she is my niece's best friend. She only had SS review once she told them she was in care as a child. They didn't review her in her first pregnancy but she was a lone parent in temporary accommodation and no employment with a history of SS intervention as a child so they referred her to SS and fought to get her children put on at risk register. It never went anywhere but she spent her whole pregnancy in conflict with them and with them on her back. They used to blame her for the condition of her temp accommodation insinuating she should have the means to rent privately. SW also didnt know that not all private houses do or have to take DSS. Niece's friend had to google it to show her.

My DD has a avoidance disorder it is part of her ASD.
I am sorry to point out I see lots if it in your posts OP. Maybe you can't help it, haven't the tools to get around it.
You need to listen and keep quiet, do you have any help someone to guide you in RL.

@mathanxiety many children are diagnosed by the age of 4, especially when there are a number of developmental concerns. There are many kids on the spectrum who are reasonably functioning, which gets picked up much later, but in a severe case, the ball should be certainly rolling at 3.

A hell of a lot of people commenting on this thread need to realise there’s only one difference between the OPs situation and thousands and thousands of other parents/children and that’s money.
If the budgets continue to be cut more and more actual cases of abuse will be missed because SW won’t have poor people cases to deal with they’ll have bloody hard abuse ones instead and no system likes those never mind individuals as they require skill and dedication to job

@inliverpool1 whilst I like to think they’d focus on hard abuse cases, as the budget tightens, they’ll have more poor people at their door. The budget tightens more quickly for the individual. There are huge problems with universal credit, huge problems with rising rents, homelessness has gone crazy now.

It feels like I have to admit to their concerns to move on, rather than an agree to disagree

Yes exactly! Finally a bit of hope from what you're written.
Next step after is to show PRACTICAL solutions and actions to ALL of the concerns. From your posts it's clear you are capable of analytical thinking. So apply this to real life.

They need concrete things to write in their reports -give it to them.

Concern : moving house frequently. Action :you keep applying until you get a permanant place (it doesn't matter if the first fell through.)
Concern : feeding your children. Action : cookery classes (it doesn't matter if you already know how to cook).
Concern : stimulation for young children Action : you look into local groups and classes for young children... (it doesn't matter if you already have toys at home).

I already signed my daughter up for nursery school. She won’t be attending and I have absolutely no control over that. I have asked for toilet training advice and didn’t get anywhere, ‘kids know when they’re ready’, actually, it’s been used as a way to prove I don’t understand child development.

I didn’t faff around with talk of taxis. She brought the topic up. She offered. If I didn’t accept, it would have been failure to engage. I did comply and this was used against me, as she said I demanded them, when I wasn’t bothered in the first place. It was their suggestion.

You have described a house with mess everywhere, damp in the living room, mould in the children's bedroom where presumably the many soft toys were stored, potentially collecting mould spores

How is that her fault? Have you seen the state of some private rented and even council/temp emergency housing? Even the council have places homeless families into houses thick with mould! Some people don't have a choice if they want a roof over their head.

But yeah as PPs have said, even if the social workers are wrong, you have to jump through their hoops. I've always hated social workers, ever since I was a kid, just an instant dislike as soon as someone says they are one.

i have asked for toilet training advice and didn’t get anywhere, ‘kids know when they’re ready’, actually, it’s been used as a way to prove I don’t understand child development.

I didn’t faff around with talk of taxis. She brought the topic up. She offered. If I didn’t accept, it would have been failure to engage. I did comply and this was used against me, as she said I demanded them, when I wasn’t bothered in the first place. It was their suggestion

Yep, typical. My nan used to tidy up my toys when I went down for a nap, then when I woke up she'd get them out again. Social worker said she was over the top and "too tidy" or whatever, not relaxed enough. Nope, I'm the same, when LO is napping I don't just leave the toys all over the floor. If you go the other way and don't tidy up then they'd pick on you for that too.

For the potty training for example , buy a potty and leave it in the middle of the bathroom for when the SW visits.
You need to demostrate practical solutions and actions every time.
so the SW can tick the box :potty provided child can use in own time...
They will not hold your hand and tell you what to do.
Stop asking them. Mumsnet is your friend for that. Start a post 'child not potty trained what do i do?'.

Take the list of concerns and do your own research. Go back to them with your practical solutions. Even if you disagree and it all seems ridiculous.

@ SittingAround1 you are assuming the OP has her own bathroom

Op would you say untidy homeless accommodation is good enough for your children?

I don't think anybody believes it's good enough, but if you are homeless then what choice do you have? My mum was in a refuge at one point and had to have her two primary ages kids in one room with her, shared bathroom and kitchen, chaotic and not the cleanest etc, a fee instances of ex partners turning up at the refuge because some woman had let slip where she was etc. Kids weren't removed.

Oh, I have done my own research, but I was told that I should ask HVs for advice, then following through, which ticks the ‘following guidance’ box. I won’t ask them for advice again, as I know this is inappropriate now.

I did buy a potty and some potty training dolls. She’s got a little toilet seat and a stool too. She’s too scared to sit on the potty, she just likes to put random objects in there. Sometimes she pulls her pants down after going in her nappy, so I’ve put her on the seat whilst she’s showing signs. I think she just doesn’t understand. I kept trying to persevere anyway, as long as it wasn’t upsetting her. She quite likes the toilet seat.

Ok OP. I really feel for you. I rarely post and I feel compelled to try to help. I think the vast majority of posters are trying to do the same.

I can see the circular arguments here. There are many. I’m not going to add to them.

I will add my support to the posters who urge you to take action now. I’m going to focus my post on some ideas on how those of us on mumsnet might be able to help. These won’t be exhaustive - and while I don’t think inundating you with hundreds of ideas today is the best plan, perhaps a group of us on here can take some ideas, agree the best ones, the specific steps you could take and then you can follow through.

For example:

A poster suggested earlier to post photos of your kitchen. This is a good idea. It would provide factual evidence of what it’s like and might give us an idea of what drove SS’s concerns. The conversation right now on this is circular because some are imagining a kitchen where last night’s dishes haven’t been washed; others are imagining something where there are material hygiene concerns, hazards to child safety in the form of clutter. Once we’ve seen it, we can help you with the next steps (if you’ll let us). I totally understand if you’d find that too outing. You mention a friend in an earlier post and some nice family... could you do this exercise with them?

If neither of these is an option, the circular discussion about your kitchen will continue on here. It doesn’t help you, so can we change it?

You mentioned you’re in temp accommodation. I don’t know how this works but you’ve also said you could be here for two years. This means you have no excuse not to make the house clean and tidy.
Regardless of what you think about the cleanliness and tidiness yourself, get a cleaning company in to quote. Use the money you’re currently spending on the educational psychologist. This is more important. Even getting a quote will give an idea of how much work is here. They will be clear if the house is too cluttered for a deep clean. This will be your evidence. I accept the property should be clean when you arrive; but it isn’t. In doing the best for your children, use the money you have to sort it. Even if someone else should have done it.

At the same time, start pushing in writing for a permanent home. Getting it in writing will give you evidence (and as others have mentioned, written comms is definitely one of your strengths).

There may also be some value - if you’ve not already done it - in documenting specifically what you did and when in terms of raising concerns about your elder daughter.

Make a list of toys you have for your children. Share it with us. We can look at it and see if there’s anything obvious missing.

Write down what you remember of the taxi chat. Share it with us. You say she offered/ she says you demanded. I am wondering if the conversation was something like this (also mentioned by another poster):
SS: DD1s appointment will be at x hospital.

You: oh. That’s really tricky to get to. I’m not sure how I’m going to manage/ it will be hard to get to / I’ll need to save up to afford that. Is there anything you can do to help me?

SS: would it be easier if we organised a taxi?

You: Yes definitely!

This is an example of where SS offered. So you are factually correct. But what will have driven her view of a ‘demand’ will be the context which led her to make the offer. I couldn’t think of a way to make it look like a demand when I wrote my script above - but if it happened anything like that she will have formed a view along the following lines:

• OP has pushed for an appointment
• appointment made at only facility in city
• I confirmed appointment, OP quick to raise concerns about logistics of getting there, citing time/cost and indicated financial support would be beneficial to ensure appointment was kept.

Then... all that gets condensed into ‘she asked for taxis to get to her DD appointments’. And later... it becomes further condensed to ‘she demanded a taxi to hospital’. Share your recollection of the full chat and people will give you a view.

You can absolutely disregard these ideas. But if you do, please please think about what three things you could do instead today to make meaningful progress. Once you’ve done them, define three actions for tomorrow. And so on....

I will keep looking at this post. I really want to help you.

I do realise it can be hard for social workers to understand the realities of being homeless. The majority of the properties around here are too expensive and very few accept housing benefit. Once you’ve overcome those hurdles, you’ve usually got to secure £1500 up front, a guarantor and references. My local authority take quite a dim view on private renting, as they feel it’s insecure. I absolutely understand this. But when you’re in temporary accommodation, you have to wait your turn or get private rent. It really isn’t ideal, but it’s the reality for many thousands of people now.

As for the antenatal classes, it’s a common misunderstanding. If you’ve already been there, you’re likely to know the pain relief options and labour choices. If you’re high risk or have an elective section, then most of it is pretty much irrelevant. The options which are typically offered are online. So is the protocol for an emergency section. I’ve attended them before and found the hysteria about general anaesthetic a bit alarming.

It went something like this:

Sw: how are you getting to the appt?

Me: it’s quite early, so I’ll get a taxi or a friend to drop us off, to ensure I get there on time.

Sw: I can help you with a taxi, if you’d like

Me: that would be great, but if you can’t, I’ll get a lift or a taxi myself

I know my oversharing can be problematic, it’s like Asperger’s causes me to explain things fully.

Sorry I can't possibly read the entire thread so maybe this has been touched upon but is there a possibility OP has undiagnosed ADHD/ASD? There seems to be a pattern of not getting on with professionals and not really understanding why. This combined with having troubles with organisation suggest something like ASD/ADHD may be at play.

Oh sorry X-post you said you have aspergers.

OP, it seems very wrong that your ASD isn't being taken into consideration by the social workers.

Usually, in a legal situation it is considered an imperative that the person being accused can understand and present an argument fluently. For example, if a person is accused of theft, the legal system has to ensure that they both understand the nature of the allegations against them, and are able to mount a proper defence - that can mean having a solicitor, or it can mean extra services, like translators or advocates. Is this not the case in child protection cases? And if not, why not?

Surely the OP, should have some kind of help in a situation which would be overwhelming even for an NT person.

I think the ASD is affecting the interactions with the SW. As others have pointed out you need to give clear focussed answers to their questions.

I guess that you may have had interactions similar to this

SW - this place needs sorting out, there aren’t even any curtains

You - I have been looking at curtain rails online. I like the one in Argos but I need to buy a new masonry bit for the drill. I think I will order it from Amazon etc.

SW - It’s not just about curtains

You - But you just said it was

So in this sort of scenario you would be finding them vague and they would feel you are not seeing the full picture but focussing on details.

The answer the SW might have wanted in that sort of scenario was
You - yes I agree things need to be sorted out. I am going to get curtains this week. What else would you like me to concentrate on?

I think the ASD is affecting the interactions with the SW. As others have pointed out you need to give clear focussed answers to their questions.

It clearly is having an effect - but shouldn't the SW be aware that this could be the case? The OP can't be the only person with an ASD they have dealt with, they must have systems in place to mitigate the difficulties. Instead they seem to be ploughing ahead and expecting the OP to react in the same way an NT person would, when obviously she can't.