Aibu to think that my kids aren’t coming back?

[SeaOfDespair]

I had my girls removed last month and it’s been a very traumatic experience. My family are so far away, my friends have dwindled away and I’m stuck looking at these 4 walls.

I’m seeing a private child psychologist and doing some work with him. He understands how harsh the system can be. I’m doing 2 different parenting courses online. I’m paying for all of this myself and has been a bit of a struggle recently.

My solicitor just tells me to go along with whatever they want. I’ve ticked one thing off the list, but they’re not forthcoming with starting their own assessments. Social worker is either sick, or can’t be bothered.

My youngest has arrived to contact with bruising to her face 4 times. She is cruising, but never managed to be bruised within my care. My elder one seems sort of happy, but is having a lot of tantrums and isn’t able to communicate with me.

From them wanting to keep them at home on an order, their original intentions until the court hearing, to pretending I don’t exist. They didn’t even turn up to the meeting last week. No apology given. No notification of cancellation.

From a case of closing ranks to keeping the case open, it never did surprise me that they applied for a court order. My social worker’s reasoning? I don’t agree with their concerns, so there needs to be a care order.

Am I being unreasonable to think I don’t stand a chance in hell of getting them back, if they’re not willing to even bother working with me?

I would stop doing the child development courses and the child psychologist visits immediately or at least do not try to use them as evidence to SS that you are mending your ways. They will see it as an admission on your part that you were ignorant of child development.

The child psychologist sessions seem to me to be particularly useless. You do not need a child psychologist but you do need to get the therapy for yourself that your GP tells you there is an 18 month waiting list for.

Stop wasting money on the child psychologist and make an appointment for yourself.
As for counselling, we are looking at an 18 month waiting list. My GP said that any sort of mental health support around here is underfunded and overstretched.
You have money to throw at a child psychologist when you could look up the information you need in Wikipedia.
Book an appointment privately for yourself for the MH support you need.

You mentioned earlier that the only support the SWs ever offered you was a sandwich when you were being monitored in hospital.
Support from SWs means instructions about what you can do yourself for your children, and monitoring/criticism.
(What were you being monitored for?)

Would I be wrong to guess that you feel you could do with support, meaning something sort of motherly? That you feel the lack of anyone modeling parental care for you, and could use someone to be a mother to you? SW are not that person. Don't be angry with them for that.

Ah yes, so a health visitor who has seen me once would suddenly be worried about my child, a week after a complaint. A health visitor who has reasonable justification doesn't have to make things up. Parts of her referral were proven to be untrue, yet are still listed as concerns.

prawnsword Thu 14-Nov-19 23:52:29
You’re waxing lyrical & philosophising however you refuse to answer questions about the state of your house so I can only assume this is the issue they have been removed over & an insult which you take exception to.

So prawn - you had an earlier vile comment deleted - have you anything supportive to advise the OP? or just on here to see someone in distress and for whatever reason goading her?

And just to add, we didn't share the children. He has never paid a penny in maintanance and he didn't even see them for 3 years. He was abusive to all of us. Documented abuse! But he was a reliable source of information on our childrens welfare? Ok

@HungryAgain2019 I do get it. But social services didn't magically appear at your door did they. There was a concern raised, rightly or wrongly and they acted on it to see if it was true, which is their duty. Obviously the investigation didn't lead anywhere but they had a legal obligation to investigate when a concern is raised.

I'm ignoring prawn, she had 2 replies removed earlier, both of which were thoroughly unpleasant. I don't owe toxic people a response.

It's good you accept there is a communication problem.

Your ASD hugely compromises your ability to engage with services. I can see why the SWs and HVs are exasperated - usually these folk are communicators and collaborators by nature, but they likely experience your communication as comprised of nothing but constant roadblocks.

For example it's crystal clear that your household was at least somewhat unsettled for your kids, possibly chaotic/in physical disarray at times, and that your eldest has serious challenges to deal with.

Someone has realized this, whether it's through the first HV or not, and they've been trying to get you to agree that there's an issue and take initiative to address the issue.
All they want is for you to be amenable, to nod and agree, so that they can box check that you have engaged and reflected and so on.
But it seems that because of your ASD you basically are unable to do this. You instead are focused on arguing minutiae and getting work up about definitions of terms etc.

Which puts them in a tough spot because they, equally, know that they will be in the shit if something else happens to trigger more SS involvement. They're trying to tick a box, and you basically are unable to help them tick that box.

It's probably very frustrating to everyone involved.

My heart goes out to you because the reality of your ASD and the huge impact it's having is so so clear as I read each of your posts.

I dearly hope you're able to get an advocate involved who can assist you in communicating and coach you as you move through the SS assessments etc. I'm sure you think the SWs are horrible and ridiculous, I can only imagine how frustrating and saddening this situation is. But please know that it's really likely they're just trying to do right by the kids involved - and they're probably really unnerved and worried by your refusal to agree with the realities they're perceiving.

SeaOfDespair Fri 15-Nov-19 00:12:17
I'm ignoring prawn, she had 2 replies removed earlier, both of which were thoroughly unpleasant. I don't owe toxic people a response. smile

And that there should show the nay sayers how reasonable and rationed you are. Pfft, don't give them the time of day :)

It did lead somewhere though! It lead to 2 unstable children and an exhausted, beaten down mother who very nearly gave up! They didn't investigate, they took the false allegations as fact and were determined right up to the very end to take my children and place them with an abuser. One who has sexual abuse and dv on his record. But you keep telling yourself they did their best and did it all correctly.

rvby Fri 15-Nov-19 00:15:40
Your ASD hugely compromises your ability to engage with services. I can see why the SWs and HVs are exasperated - usually these folk are communicators and collaborators by nature, but they likely experience your communication as comprised of nothing but constant roadblocks.

Disgusting and reported - what a narrow minded disablist post. OP please don't respond to this bollix

The OP has been provided with support from social services. She wants a realistic answer of whether she is unreasonable to expect to get her kids back. That is the question - she is being unreasonable because she won’t address anything about her house.

Engaging would be hiring a skip, getting cleaning team in, documenting clean up, visual proof to be working towards getting the house up to standard which was flagged. The kitchen specifically was an issue to SW.

The OP is being deliberately argumentative with SW & denying issues they raise. It doesn’t matter that different people have different ideas of what engage & reflection mean. It only matters what SWs definition of it is, because those are the people who are in charge now.

I understand entirely what you're saying, but it does feel like they're frustrating the path to my eldest daughter's diagnosis. I don't feel like they've put the girls' best interests first. My eldest daughter does need more support and I'm entirely open to working with them on it, because it would actually be easier getting somewhere with their support.

It feels like I have to admit to their concerns to move on, rather than an agree to disagree, but set aside the difficulties and do what needs doing. It's ended up a circular battle of wills.

I'm trying to work on learning more about parenting, to address their concerns, so that the girls can come home.

Look @HungryAgain2019, you might not have agreed with or liked the process but ultimately this was your exes doing, not theirs. They are a group of people, doing a thankless job, wanting to do their work, go home and watch Netflix. They HAD to investigate you. I'm sure they would have rather had one less case on their books to be honest.

Wrt the PLO:

They asked for a psychological assessment and I agreed to it, they didn't feel that I did.
But did you do the psychological assessment or not?
If you did, then it doesn't matter if you think they felt you agreed.
If you refused to do it then it does matter. Because they are right.

Then I was asked if I agree with their concerns. I could only tell the truth to that.
That is where you went completely wrong and you need to go back to them and show them (1) how you have changed your mind and (2) how you are now getting with the programme.
Think clearly and without any excuses for yourself.
Waiting lists are not excuses.
Doing your best is not an excuse for conditions that are not healthy.
Time or cost of travel are not excuses.
Feeling deep love is not the same as effective parenting - you cannot not expect SS to judge you by your good intentions. They can only judge the situation by what they see.

I have spent many occasions having discussions with them. It becomes circular. Concerns are listed, but no real resolution is.
Concerns are listed.
What are the concerns?
What they want from you is to
(1) agree with them, and
(2) come up with realistic solutions.
You yourself have to figure out how to fix things. If you can't then they are justified in keeping your DDs in FC until you are able to get to this point.

By the way, 'engage' and 'reflect' are meaningless, they're vague buzzwords.
NO. You are wrong.
And your comment indicates resistance to what SS are trying to tell you about your ability to parent.

Engage means -

• Show willingness to listen, and no arguing or contrariness.
• Show agreement that there are concerns.
• Show agreement with each specific concern that there is.
• Ask questions if there is any confusion on your part or if you feel they are being vague or if you feel discussions are circular.

Reflect means -

• Show that you have considered the effect of the problems on the girls.
• Show that you realise what it is in you that allowed the problems to develop.
• Show that you realise you have been too defensive up to now.
• Present a clear plan to SS showing how you will fix all of the problems, including seeking MH support for yourself.

Prawn, this will be my only reply to you. Can you please stop responding to my post? Thank you.

you cannot not expect SS

I apologise for coming off as disablist.

I'm going by OP saying she has ASD and has experienced communication issues with the SWs, and I'm trying to imagine how all that is coming together in practice has the SWs try to get her to engage.

I feel compassion for all involved. It's difficult when there's no mediator to sit down and say, look, there are good intentions here but also constraints and challenges in communication. It sounds like the SWs are out of their depth in terms of communicating with OP, as well as vice versa. It's really sad to read.

Again. Apologies OP if I have offended you, also apologies to others I have offended.

@mathanxiety That is very helpful, thank you.

It feels like I have to admit to their concerns to move on, rather than an agree to disagree, but set aside the difficulties and do what needs doing. It's ended up a circular battle of wills.

I get that.
I appreciate how hard that must be for you, as someone who clearly has tried to understand the logic and facts and clearly is trying to tell the truth.

I hope you are able to find some assistance in addressing that battle of wills in a way that makes sense to you, because you're right, it's a "something has to give" type situation when it gets to this stage. I think having a mediator with you might help on that.

Wishing you the very best OP.

It feels like I have to admit to their concerns to move on, rather than an agree to disagree, but set aside the difficulties and do what needs doing. It's ended up a circular battle of wills.

This is the most sensible thing you have said so far OP. Good luck.

@rvby thank you

It feels like I have to admit to their concerns to move on, rather than an agree to disagree, but set aside the difficulties and do what needs doing. It's ended up a circular battle of wills

This is correct. You cannot agree to disagree with SS. You need to admit, accept, and work to alleviate their concerns in the way that they want you to.

A battle of wills is very pointless when so much is at stake.

@prawnsword 🤐 No one wants to listen to your comments.
Everyone is trying to help and support the OP. I am glad OP came for support.
Excellent advice from supportive Mnetters as always at a time in need.
OP take on board all the positive suggestions.