AIBU to ask for your best comeback to this work colleague...

[Seraphina77]

A male work colleague today said to me that employed women/men who choose not to have children should still be entitled to take 12 months off, paid at the equivalent of maternity/paternity pay because "then it's fair".

I was completely sidelined and apart from explaining to him that maternity/paternity leave is not a holiday, I couldn't get my brain in gear quick enough to come up with a cogent argument in response!

Help me out mumsnet... how would you have responded???

You don't need to compensate, but a (big) company could legally have to agree to grant up to a year (unpaid) leave after 3 or 4 years employment for example. Once. It doesn't have to mean someone could take 3 months off every year for 4 years

If you need more, they can refuse or you can quit.
That would be one way, I am sure there are many more. The main issue is knowing your job is safe for when you come back.

Themuppet perhaps read what’s written, I didn’t say anyone was questioning the maternity package

You are trying to justify the maternity package, no need for that. It has never been in question.

People who produce children are producing tax-payers of the future, who will be paying towards his pension.
And wiping his bottom, doing his heart surgery, mending his boiler and driving the bus that takes him to his old boys' club...

12ScreamingCosArgosHaveNoRavens of course it makes him sexualy repulsive, he was being a dick and probably very deliberately as a wind up.

Sorry but still 🤣
His view is not invalid, he is entitled to his opinion.
But the fact is that society is not equal...and fairness and equality are not the same things, what may be fair does not make things equal.
I'm not entitled to a year off work because I didn't choose to have children. Pass me the fucking violin. Yes, we are lucky we have the rights we do but it was a hard fought battle so suck it up.
If it wasn't for a woman giving birth he wouldn't even be here.
I'm ranty, I've had wine. Sue me.

And I forgot, YANBU.
In RL I would have tried hard to practice my poker face whilst internally telling him to fuck right off.

The maternity package wasn’t being justified, quite the opposite - the paid sabbatical should be justified as to what it bring to social and why it should be equal to a maternity package

Year long leave available to all in addition to parental leave: fine

Year long leave available only to non-parents as an alternative to parental leave: not fine

Year long leave available to all in addition to parental leave: fine

Year long leave available only to non-parents as an alternative to parental leave: not fine

This exactly.

I'm unsure where it would leave the OPs colleague though. Parents would still be entitle to more overall leave so presumably he would still be unhappy because it still wouldn't be 'fair'

Also, I suspect many people might change their minds when they realise exactly what they will be getting in terms of pay. Because it's likely most businesses would revert to statutory mat pay and do away with current generous benefits like full pay/half pay during mat leave. A year to 'go and find yourself' might look less enticing at £148 a week.

Inform him that for many of us at least 6 months of that 12 months is unpaid. I recieved full pay for 3 months then half pay for a further 2 months then nothing. If he wants to take a year off and only be paid for a fraction of it whilst working 24/7 for free with many other people not valuing parenting as any type of 'work' and then have to try and return to your old job or find a new one with a big gap in your work history it's up to him. However, while he is taking his year off he would be free to do whatever and go wherever he chooses as he wont have a child to look after and he is not supporting our future work force.

I don't see why everyone shouldn't be entitled to personal leave in addition to Mat/pat leave policy - it could potentially benefit everyone who may need to look after a loved one e.g Parent/sibling/partner or to take a fixed term sabatical with job safety guarantee. I say this as a Mum who has had the benefit of 2 lots of Mat leave with the same employer 6 years apart and the opportunity to return part time after my first.

**ScreamingCosArgosHaveNoRavens as side note, what you may have seen on your colleagues payslip definitely would not have been child tax credits as these go direct into your bank account and not onto your wages. Also non parents used to be able to claim working tax credits if they were over 25 and on low income - this may have changed as it was quite a few years back my BIL used to claim it

I’m surprised how many people seem to be getting 6 months full, 6 months half! My company gives that for sick leave, but mat pay is 6 weeks(!) 90%, 4 months half then nothing. And supposedly that is generous... I’m not sure many people would really want to sign up for that.

And as for those extra benefits I receive for my child (those eye watering figures that make us all so rich) - it works about approx. £90 per month. And neither my partner or I earn the national average.

As far as the ‘childless adults funding children’ argument goes - well in theory there would have been many childless adults funding your existence. Instead of feeling annoyed about how you have to pay for children you’re not having, consider it as paying back the much more generous benefits given to children years ago.

Laugh. Out loud and walk away..or::" good luck with that one , let me know how it goes."

Or "fuck off " usually works x

Ask him if he's done any equality and diversity training recently.

Sure having children is a choice but it’s one that benefits society economically (& bluntly society ceases to exist without people making that choice)

So that choice that come with downsides, loss of earnings, sleep, birth injury, is encouraged by maternity pay. Also it benefits the baby who like other posters on this thread didn’t ask to be born!

I think the environmental argument is disingenuous as I highly doubt mat pay is encouraging a population boom! There are far more effective ways to aid the environment than stopping mat pay.

Paid sabbaticals purely for fun would only benefit the individual. An equivalent of mat leave for carers of say elderly parents does seem to have more legs... the cost of caring for older generations is substantial non withstanding the human cost.

So if the guy in the OP can evidence how his choice benefits society and want to go and lobby for it, good for him. Seems more like he wants paid time off without consequence. Maternity leave is certainly not that.

My usual reply to this kind of nonsense is to walk off while they are in mid flow. Nothing says I can't even be bothered listening to your opinion or you than that.

Tell him to move to Australia where if you work same place for 7 to 10 years you can get long service leave of 3 months full pay(which is probably the equivalent sadly of one year maternity pay ) then take 9 months unpaid leave!

I agree with others saying we need younger generation to benefit society and possible care for him if he needs it later in life!

Why are you so jealous about the idea of (non-parents) people given the opportunity of "personal" leave?
Why are you so against the possibility of people travelling, renovating their home, studying, taking care of a sick sibling, an elderly parent, a dying partner - or just having a BREAK, taking a 3 months honeymoon or a 6 months unpaid leave to breathe.

Exactly!

If you'd read the thread before dismissing it as pointless, you'll see that many of us are advocating periods of leave (paid or unpaid) to be available to all, as a separate provision - something parents could have in addition to maternity/paternity leave.

Hang on a minute, isn’t there something called holiday pay? Paid to all. Some employers even allow you to save it up and use it in big chunks. You can also request unpaid leave and still have a job to return to.

I don't know any employer who will allow you to aggregate leave entitlement over more than on e holiday year - 'use it or lose it'.

(plus you would have to accumulate years of leave before getting remotely close to maternity leave duration)

Also, I suspect many people might change their minds when they realise exactly what they will be getting in terms of pay. Because it's likely most businesses would revert to statutory mat pay and do away with current generous benefits like full pay/half pay during mat leave. A year to 'go and find yourself' might look less enticing at £148 a week

No - not for me.

What would blow me away with a quasi maternity leave style 'sabbatical' would be the guaranteed right of return to employment. Regrettably I can not afford to ditch my job, take an elderly gap year, and then see whether and what I can get by way of employment.

@ThatMuppetShow

Too true, too true

Different societies have different focuses.

We have the cult of the child - other societies / cultures would place much value by the other core relationships, other matters you raise - eg elderly parents.

Only those that contribute to bringing up the next generation are entitled to it. By not having children, he's not entitled. You could say that you have been pondering his comment and obviously not everyone has the skills or is cut out for parenthood. Sympathise with his selfishness and lack of skills and suggest he could look into other ways to support society - a sabbatical helping to teach children in Africa, that sort of thing.

I don't know any employer who will allow you to aggregate leave entitlement over more than on e holiday year - 'use it or lose it'.

Quite, there is a limit to how much leave you’ll be able to carry over. Some employers will allow you to sell back unused leave up to about 5 days. It that’s about it.