AIBU to ask for your best comeback to this work colleague...

[Seraphina77]

A male work colleague today said to me that employed women/men who choose not to have children should still be entitled to take 12 months off, paid at the equivalent of maternity/paternity pay because "then it's fair".

I was completely sidelined and apart from explaining to him that maternity/paternity leave is not a holiday, I couldn't get my brain in gear quick enough to come up with a cogent argument in response!

Help me out mumsnet... how would you have responded???

Everyone has an equal opportunity to be a parent. So it’s fair.

Tell that to someone who is infertile or single.

And not having a partner isn't always a 'lifestyle choice', either. How many single people are desperate to meet someone but can't? Read some of the dating threads on here if you think being single is always a 'lifestyle choice'.

@ScreamingCosArgosHaveNoRavens
Some people are infertile but there are still options - IVF, adoption. It might not be easy but neither is childbirth. Some people don’t have a partner - sperm banks are available - single parent adoption is a thing. Some people have a partner who doesn’t want children - find another one then if you do. But don’t expect maternity/paternity leave if you aren’t actually having a child! Simple.

Some people are infertile but there are still options - IVF, adoption.

IVF doesn’t always work. Not everyone will be deemed suitable to adopt. What planet are you on?

Some people are infertile but there are still options - IVF, adoption

Well, all the IVF in the world won't help you if you have lost your womb, or ovaries.

And, guess what, even if you still have the necessary bodily parts - a quick Google tells me that the success rate for IVF in the UK is 15% if you're under 39. So 85% of people will try and fail.

Adoption - you can't just rock up to social services and say 'I'd like to adopt a child'. Not everyone who wants to adopt is approved - all sorts of things outside your control can rule you out.

Some people have a partner who doesn’t want children - find another one then if you do.

"Hi, my name's Sarah. I'm looking for a man to father my children. Don't all rush at once, form an orderly queue please."

Infertility is a lifestyle choice?
not what I meant, I didn't articulate it right. An infertile single parent can still adopt if they wish to do so. Not saying it's easy, but it's completely possible, yes I do know some single parent with an adopted child!

But being pregnant is not always "easy" for everybody either. Ultimately having a child or not is a "choice".

Not saying it's easy, but it's completely possible

Sorry, but adoption isn't possible for everyone. Some people are not allowed to adopt. Whereas you can give birth to children no matter what your lifestyle, health problems, support network are like, if you adopt you have to conform to very rigorous standards, many of which will be outside your influence.

I've seen a friend go through the adoption process. I have no desire to adopt but I know for a fact I wouldn't be eligible due to my history of MH issues.

Maybe if you are not suitable to adopt then that answers your question. I know people who have travelled to China to adopt kids. All sorts of options are possible.

Maternity leave was designed to protect pregnant women who were routinely fired for being pregnant and were then left with no way to support their child. Raising a child is massively expensive, just in case you haven’t noticed.

If you are child free there is nothing to stop you quitting, taking a gap year using your savings and returning. It would be much cheaper than having a baby. Most families use up savings to cover the unpaid section of maternity leave.

And you won’t he hit by all those childcare costs in the future and all the missed promotions mothers suffer.

Maternity or paternity leave is not a holiday. If you are good at your job and take a gap year you can easily find another.

@ScreamingCosArgosHaveNoRavens it’s called Tinder.

Yes, and people can use them as unpaid childminders at any hour, day or night. Someone will also come and randomly wake them in the middle of the night and make them clean/cook things. They also have to part with 3/4 of their cash and never do any 'me' activities unless its napping at four in the afternoon.

Maybe if you are not suitable to adopt then that answers your question. I know people who have travelled to China to adopt kids. All sorts of options are possible.

These people would still have had to go through an approval process here. Overseas adoption is not some way of avoiding that.

If you are good at your job and take a gap year you can easily find another.

That's a bit pat.

• Of people I know who have been made redundant in the last five years, it's taken them at least six months, some up to a year, to find another job, not necessarily at the same salary. And these are all people who were good at their job and who job-hunted intensively.

• Even if you easily find another job, you've lost all your legal employment rights for the next two years.

• Even if you manage to get re-employed by the same employer, any accrued benefits would be gone.

The key thing about parental leave isn't that it's paid - you're right that it's possible to save up to fund unpaid leave - but that you are guaranteed a return to the same or equivalent job role, with none of your contractual rights affected.

I know people who have travelled to China to adopt kids.

If you're planning to bring the child to live in the UK, the approval process is exactly the same. Plus you have the added overseas bureaucracy to go through. There are more children available, yes, so you may avoid the wait to be matched with a child, but that's the only difference.

The key thing about parental leave isn't that it's paid - you're right that it's possible to save up to fund unpaid leave - but that you are guaranteed a return to the same or equivalent job role, with none of your contractual rights affected.

And that it is a statutory right whereas sabbaticals paid or otherwise are not.

Raising a child is massively expensive, just in case you haven’t noticed.
it's a CHOICE! It's no one else responsibility to shoulder your finances because you chose to have a baby.

Maternity or paternity leave is not a holiday. If you are good at your job and take a gap year you can easily find another.
then you could say the same about taking a year off maternity or paternity leave.

People might want or NEED time off, unpaid but with a secure job at the end, for many reasons, it's not fair at all that only parents are giving the choice.

It should be "personal leave" not "maternity or paternity" leave.

Maybe if you are not suitable to adopt then that answers your question

I'm not sure what question you mean. I wouldn't make a good parent, no. That's why I didn't have children. That's why, when I still had a womb, I was always very careful about contraception and in 25 years of fertile adulthood, succeeded in avoiding pregnancy.

That doesn't mean I have no need for time off. I have the constant problem of my elderly parents.

My sister is in the same boat, except she wanted children, but the only times she got pregnant, suffered a miscarriage. She's now gone into premature menopause, so it's never going to happen.

Neither of us have had any time longer than two weeks off work for the last 20-odd years, other than when I was recovering from a hysterectomy, and even that was only 7 weeks. Both of us would kill for a 'sabbatical' - both of us struggle with juggling our responsibilities - but it's just not possible.

Leave to care for elderly parents is another issue and can affect all people - women in particular. Yes, there should be some sort of facility for this.

Re: adopting. Kids are not sweeties and this is why there is a process to protect adopted children. I was going to say they are not puppies but there is of course a process to protect adopted puppies too, if you get them from a shelter. If you are a really bad natural parent your kids will also be removed.

The point about maternity/paternity leave is it is for a specific purpose - having a child. Anyone who has a baby can take it, so that is fair. But you do have to have a baby.

I don’t consider it unfair that I haven’t had a major debilitating illness and haven’t needed to have six months off on sick leave. I accept it is there for if it’s needed, thankfully. I don’t expect to take a holiday in lieu and I don’t feel envious of colleagues with cancer or long term stress.

It is much much easier to get all sorts of employment as a childless person - female in particular. Many employers have and still would discriminate against mothers if they could. This is why maternity pay is a very hard fought for right and not one to just be dismissed as a holiday.

And, as other posters have said, my kids’ taxes will be paying for public services in the future.

The point about maternity/paternity leave is it is for a specific purpose - having a child. Anyone who has a baby can take it, so that is fair. But you do have to have a baby.

But again, it's a CHOICE - whilst having cancer isn't. The choice should be the same for everybody, child or no child. At least the choice of taking a year unpaid but with a guaranteed job at the end.

Many employers have and still would discriminate against mothers if they could.

The thing is, though, that because employers can't ask job candidates whether they have or plan to have children, that discrimination still affects women who don't have them and don't intend to have them.

When applying for internal jobs, I have seriously wondered if there is any way I can casually mention my childless state and hysterectomy during the interview, but there isn't. So I am still affected by possible discrimination, but with none of the benefits that give rise to that discrimination. So it's the worst of both worlds, I'm afraid.

my kids’ taxes will be paying for public services in the future.

that is a massive jump to assume that your kids will be high tax payer, and not on benefit or even on low income doing non-essential roles..
I don't buy that argument at all.

It’s a choice and if you choose it you can have the leave. I don’t see what is unfair about that.

Illness isn’t a choice, of course. But there is a different leave for that and I don’t resent those who use it.

Do you honestly think parents have it easy? Maybe if you got your “personal leave” you should then be made to pay the equivalent of all average childcare costs for the next 18 years. That would be fair too.

It’s a choice and if you choose it you can have the leave. I don’t see what is unfair about that.

It's not a choice for everyone, though. I hate to go round in circles but some people are not able to have children and not deemed suitable to adopt them.

Maybe if you got your “personal leave” you should then be made to pay the equivalent of all average childcare costs for the next 18 years.

Sure - if I can also have 18 years of child benefit and working tax credits.

Don’t necessarily agree but I absolutely DETEST when workplaces give parents preferential treatment eg. only allowing people with kids holiday in August and not childless people because they never want to go away in August apparently , only allowing people with kids time off after 18th December (yes this really happened, because as a 20yo I had absolutely no friends family or desire to have fun at Xmas?) asking childless people to come in early/stay late when they may not want to or be able to and saying ‘but so and so has to get back to her kids !’ When they were being looked after by their FATHER who is you know, THEIR PARENT. Sorry can you tell this pisses me off no end 😂