AIBU to ask for your best comeback to this work colleague...

[Seraphina77]

A male work colleague today said to me that employed women/men who choose not to have children should still be entitled to take 12 months off, paid at the equivalent of maternity/paternity pay because "then it's fair".

I was completely sidelined and apart from explaining to him that maternity/paternity leave is not a holiday, I couldn't get my brain in gear quick enough to come up with a cogent argument in response!

Help me out mumsnet... how would you have responded???

ScreamingCosArgosHaveNoRavens

I'm sceptical. I remember helping a colleague who was a parent sort out an overtime issue at work. My eyes nearly fell out of my head when he showed me his salary slips. My taxes take a chunk off my gross wage. His 'tax credits' actually made his net pay higher than his gross pay!

Bullshit. Those weren't tax credits since they aren't paid via your employer. They are paid directly into the recipient's bank account. I expect what your colleague had there was a tax rebate from overpaying tax in a previous year.

I expect what your colleague had there was a tax rebate from overpaying tax in a previous year.

It's possible, I suppose. Obviously I didn't ask him about it, as he'd just asked me to help figure out whether he'd been paid the right overtime, not to analyse the rest of his pay. It was shown as a 'tax credit' though.

Some people are not allowed to adopt

Yes, this. I can't believe some of the actual crap I have read on here lately. MN is becoming more and more hostile towards people who aren't parents.

I was married. We wanted children so we tried to have them. Ten years, 4 IBF failures later we tried adoption. We went into it confident as our LA were actively looking for mixed race couples and as we were a mixed race couple we were exactly what they were looking for. Nope. My husband had a history of depression and that went against us, along with the perception that I was too focussed on my career - I was just building up a business.

I've done my bit over 25 years of working supporting women going on mat leave. I've done the extra hours, the Christmas's and the Easter's. I've had the years of not being able to have time off in the summer with my teacher husband. I listened to the crap about how it would all be my turn soon.

It wasn't. It will never be.

If non parents want an equivalent time off to do whatever the hell they like for a few months then I for one would support it. In fact my business partner and I are already discussing how to make it work for us and our employees. If the parents in my company don't like it, or think they are more entitled to anything then they can find other employment.

That might just be the terminology used on the payroll. Tax credits, as given to parents by the government, are paid directly into the recipient's account.

In fact my business partner and I are already discussing how to make it work for us and our employees.

How do you think you would make this work though? You cannot deny maternity leave to those who are legally entitled to it, and you could not offer another type of leave only available to non-parents without leaving yourself open to a discrimination claim.

If the parents in my company don't like it, or think they are more entitled to anything then they can find other employment.

I appreciate you have gone through a tough time and feel parents get all the perks, and that you want non-parents to get something back too. However, this particular sentiment makes you sound very bitter towards people whose only misdemeanour is to have been able to have children, however hard that journey may have been for them.

@DontMakeMeShushYou it will be open to all people and yes, of course parents can take it if they want.

I'm really fed up with being called bitter. It is such a nonsensical and reductive term to use against someone who is, in fact, just angry at how the views of a section of society are so routinely dismissed.

@Leighhalfpennysthigh sorry to hear all you went through

it will be open to all people and yes, of course parents can take it if they want.

I'm really fed up with being called bitter. It is such a nonsensical and reductive term to use against someone who is, in fact, just angry at how the views of a section of society are so routinely dismissed.

Well it sounds like an excellent plan then. The ability to have a period of time off to do with as you wish, entirely separate and unrelated to any statutory parental leave would, I'm sure, be very welcome to all. Although I'm not sure I understand your statement that If the parents in my company don't like it, or think they are more entitled to anything then they can find other employment. Why would they not like it if it is something available to everyone on the same terms? What is it that you think they would feel more entitled to? Why, if it is something available on the same terms to all your staff, do you single out parents as being the ones you who might not like it? Why do you think only parents would be the ones who would think they were more entitled? If people often call you bitter, I can see why you would be fed up with it, but can you not see how that last sentence reads? If you'd said "any staff" instead of "parents" it would have been fine.

@DontMakeMeShushYou hmm, read some of the comments on this thread from parents about this.....now do you understand my phrasing? As it is the only parent I ever had trouble with left last year. My staff are brilliant and we want to keep hold of them, so happy to support as much as possible.

No, I'm afraid not. What have the comments from parents on this thread got to do with it? You were specifically talking about the parents in your company and I'd imagine it is unlikely you are employing any of the parents on this thread.

People on here make such a meal of having a baby ffs. It’s a privilege and it’s wonderful - it’s not something like a chore you suffer through for goodness sake and need a fucking year to recover from! Christ alive.

@DontMakeMeShushYou you're being dense and I can't be bothered to argue.

What have the comments from parents on this thread got to do with it?

Some parents on this thread have supported the idea of non-parental leave; others have been vehemently against it. It's not unreasonable to anticipate a similar spread of views amongst parents who might be employed in any company, or might be future employees of the company. Mumsnet is a huge forum - it's not as though Leigh were looking at views from a tiny, niche group of parents.

This argument is so nonsensical. Should people who never take long-term sick leave get a few months off to even it up?

Well, yes, that would be logically consistent. The way you would actually make things fair in both cases is not to give paid leave to people on sick or maternity who weren't sick or pregnant, but make those leaves unpaid. Then you'd be back to a simpler arrangement, where people are only actually paid for work they do.

I'm not actually against maternity or sick pay, but they do defy the first order logic that pay is supposed to correspond to your work output. That's all OP's colleague was getting at.

People on here make such a meal of having a baby ffs. It’s a privilege and it’s wonderful - it’s not something like a chore you suffer through for goodness sake and need a fucking year to recover from! Christ alive.

How much of a 'privilege' did you find it as they sewed up your third-degree tear in an undercarriage that looked like a busy day at the abattoir?

@crispysausagerolls I needed 8 months to recover from injuries caused by a lack of available care when I went into labour. I was not entitled to sick leave on full pay then half pay that I would have had from the same employer at any other time in my career because I was on mat leave, so my employer was committed to a reduced rate of pay. I also had to pay more than my income at that time out on childminding to look after my child when I could not (ongoing medical and surgical interventions during the day time when my partner was at work, etc). It's beyond upsetting to think that other people see something completely outside of my control as 'making a meal of having a baby'. Would you use that phrase to parents who spend 6 months of parental leave dashing back and forth to NICU? It's not a typical experience for most people, granted, but it might be for some, and guess what, they will be reading this thread, too, so have a bit of compassion.

I still believe in the provision of parental leave at a societal level despite the fact that I was personally disadvantaged by it to a degree, and agree with others that a similar leave package should be considered for caring responsibilities. Career break packages are in place at many employers but like most things, what's in the policy and what's available in practice can vary - I'd like to see this tightened up as well.

How much of a 'privilege' did you find it as they sewed up your third-degree tear in an undercarriage that looked like a busy day at the abattoir?

A huge one, as I held my baby in my arms.

I am not saying maternity leave isn’t necessary, I am saying parents need to stop acting like heroes for having babies as every other bloody species on the planet does, and recognise the special treatment they receive in this country.

Would you use that phrase to parents who spend 6 months of parental leave dashing back and forth to NICU?

Well, no, because that’s not a scenario where someone has given birth to a healthy baby and should be grateful for that and get on with things.

Some people are very lucky they live in the UK with the NHS, and not in the middle of Africa where they have to work the next day. Or even the US where they have only6 weeks of mat leave. And still there is complaining and begrudging people for having paid leave if they don’t have children, and people on here saying disgusting shit about not having children being a choice, because fuck infertile couples, right?! Horrible

Going back to the OP’s post, I think the point is that the tone of the initial comment and of posts here is to denigrate maternity/paternity leave as a holiday. It isn’t and the time is not spent like that. Anyone can take it if they have a baby. If you want some other sort of sabbatical offered to all staff, parents or not, then go ahead and ask for it but don’t take maternity/paternity away.

Some other comments are slightly ridiculous. You couldn’t take maternity leave if you didn’t have a child because who knows, you might suddenly become pregnant and then need it anyway. Employers can’t ask your entire gynae history and shouldn’t. If you are a bloke you benefit from your other half taking time off and anyway it can be shared. If you are a woman who has no womb or whatever you may still have a female partner who gets pregnant. Or use a surrogate. And there is no point taking mat leave if your are deemed unsuitable to adopt.

Well as a disabled person, who obvs didn't get disabled on purpose, I'm not covered in work for my multiple sick days n weeks.

Yet it if I were to chose to get pregnant, I can take 6 months fill lay, and 6 months half pay.... Time off for.operations, if not taken as holiday... No.pay. time off for not being able to get to work... No.pay.

Think you can see where I'm going with this.

Pregnancy is a choice, my disabilities are definitely not a choice. Max period of pain if pregnant, 9 months with one day at max level.

Being disabled, pain for last 30nyears, max overbearing pain weeks at a time and multiple times in a year.

Going back to the OP’s post, I think the point is that the tone of the initial comment and of posts here is to denigrate maternity/paternity leave as a holiday.

No one has done that or suggested it is a holiday. What it is statutory paid time away from the workplace for something that is a purely personal choice. And people have suggested it should be available for other personal choices.

I am not saying maternity leave isn’t necessary, I am saying parents need to stop acting like heroes for having babies as every other bloody species on the planet does, and recognise the special treatment they receive in this country.

bit harsh

but I agree that no one is denying that maternity leave should exist. There are just some posters who seem to think maternity leave would be under attacked, or diminished somehow, if other people were allowed leave too.
I still can't understand why.

to denigrate maternity/paternity leave as a holiday

It isn't a case of there being two states - being 'at work' or being 'on holiday'. There are many shades in between. People who want non-parental leave are not necessarily asking for it to spend 'on holiday' - examples on this thread have included using it to fulfil other caring responsibilities, using it to do charitable or volunteer work, for example - the latter being something that might give personal fulfilment in the same way some people are fulfilled by having children.

From the maternity leave vs holiday perspective - the same applies. Time off can be 'not a holiday' while still being preferable to being at work.

Where I work, if you take a full year off for maternity, the last portion of that is unpaid - most people seem to take the unpaid bit, which suggests they'd rather be with their baby than in the office, even if being with the baby isn't a 'holiday' - otherwise they'd surely come back as soon as their pay ran out.

I would have told him to pass a grapefruit through his penis and then having 12 months paid leave might be fair. Dickturd.

LMFAO - what a muppet