Jeremy Corbyn - PM by default?

[Considermesometimes]

I am not a 'woke' labour supporter. I come from a long line of many generations of stout labour supporters. It would be unthinkable up to now in my family for anyone to vote for any other party. I would be shown the door at my gp's house for even having this conversation.

However, I am seriously seriously worried, I would go as far as to say terrified of the prospect of voting for Labour this time, and Jeremy Corbyn actually becoming Prime Minister.
I am interested to know how others are dealing with this problem.

I am worried that some of the policies such as seizing assets and homes from people, massive taxes etc. We are home owners and work very hard, it could all be jeopardised.

Forced closure of private schools in this area would be a complete and utter disaster. As it is we have to finish early on Friday afternoons, and do not have funds for every day stationary much less hundreds of extra children. What would happen to our already very full classes of 33-38 with all the extra children from the private schools? How is this even possible? And yet it seems Labour are fully committed to it when pressed on the issue.

The huge privatisation plan of utilities looks to cost around 200 billion pounds. I don't want our money spent this way! I would much prefer better schools and hospitals, and crime to be under control in this part of the country. I can't even get a GP app for my asthmatic dd at the moment. I could not care less about the Utilities or the railways etc. The LP just do not seem to understand at the moment what matters to most people.

The whole defence and nuclear issue. I don't feel we live in a particularly safe world. I like the fact we have some defences against the nut jobs in the Middle East or North Korea. The fact that other countries would not trust the UK under Corbyn to share intelligence with us, and his lack of decision making in a crisis, or even his basic understanding of deterrents is deeply disturbing.

I just don't think Corbyn is up to the job in any shape or form. Nor do most of the party.

I have thought about voting Lib Dems, but looking at the numbers that will almost certainly result in Corbyn being PM. There is almost no chance at all of Lib Dems getting 326 seats. A vote for Lib Dems is a vote for a Labour government probably propped up by the SNP who will demand another independence referendum in six months.

I am livid with the party for allowing this to happen, how is Corbyn still the leader of the party it is beyond me. How has this been allowed to happen? Chuka Umunna would have made an excellent PM, but all the best candidates are leaving the Labour party.

I don't think I can vote for anyone. That is my final conclusion, for the first time in thirty years I will not vote. What are you planning to do?

Stop reading the tabloids, watching mainstream news channels, listening to what he says/she says and listen to the man himself and read the Labour Party manifesto.

Then make up your mind.

Wow. I've heard it all now. Poor Venezuelan government, of course it's not their fault

Where did I say that? I explained the basic economic background in isolation to demonstrate why we are nothing like Venezuela and why no policy can “turn us into Venezuela”. At no point did I discuss who’s to blame for this.

Dunno, Bertrand, but I can see him fucking up schools really quickly.

It’s absolutely ridiculous to make statements like this without quantifying them, and while the tories are actually fucking up our schools by slashing funding and particularly fucking over disabled children.

I just ask because I earn under 85k and have used the state school system and the NHS multiple times over the last 15 years and it's all gone pretty well.

It’s gone pretty well for you so it must be fine? Do you not think properly funded services might be better? You say over the last 15 years - what about the last 5?

I was diagnosed with endometriosis in 2004 and have had extensive dealings with the NHS over the last 20 years. Anyone who’s had similar longterm experience of the NHS can see the way things have disintegrated. Have you spoken to many people for whom companies like Virgin have taken over their doctors surgeries? In my current practice I’m quite shielded from how bad things are as it’s small and in an affluent area - my last practice was an absolute horror show and only 15 mins down the road.

Do you know anyone with children with SEN? Do you know how many of them are having to home educate because of the lack of provision?

Do you know anyone who’s on an NMW zero hours contract and can’t afford to house, feed and clothe their children? In case you missed it, 55% of homeless families are in employment
england.shelter.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/1545412/2018_07_19_Working_Homelessness_Briefing.pdf

The reason for the statement above is that only a very small number of wealthy people truly benefit from Tory policy. If you’re not one of them, why are you voting for them?

deathgrip I can assure you I've sadly had multiple reasons to use the nhs over the last 5 years. Apart from thinking I should be paying for it, its been great.

I think one of Labour’s big problems is that they no longer have any good spin doctors

I said this to DH the other day. Labour are failing to get their message across, but that’s unsurprising when their policies will negatively impact those running the media.

I’m already seeing the “I don’t like Corbyn but I’m starting to like what he’s saying” comments on social media - mainly because for many, this is the first time they’ve actually heard what he’s saying.

Labour were even further behind in the polls before the last GE and we almost ended up with a hung parliament. Once fair representation rules come into play, things change.

deathgrip i was replying to the post that I quoted. Do you agree with it?

“That's like saying the left are exploiting JRMs gaffe!”

I think that’s my point- they should be but they aren’t! Tory gaffes- and worse than gaffes- just vanish. Labour ones are constantly being kept in the foreground. I’m not saying they shouldn’t be kept there- but there is a marked difference in the way the parties are presented in the media.

I can assure you I've sadly had multiple reasons to use the nhs over the last 5 years. Apart from thinking I should be paying for it, its been great.

I’m very glad to hear it. I wish this were the case for everyone. I almost lost my son, not once but twice, directly related to overbooked clinics, cancellations and overworked doctors. My mum died because her cancer was misdiagnosed and incorrectly treated for a year - had she been diagnosed correctly initially, she would have been able to have a surgery which could have saved her life.

My son needs a great deal of medical input, which would have bankrupted us under an American style system, even with insurance. I love the NHS. I want it to continue to exist, and I want it to function better so that everyone’s experience of it is “great”. Right now that entirely depends on where you live and what’s wrong with you.

It's absolute bollocks that the media are misrepresenting Corbyn. And if that's the case, and to see him talk in person is to suddenly see the light, then that's a pretty poor way to try and run a party! I've listened to John McC interviewed and I think the policies sound wasteful and impossible.

But I think we should all pay more tax and not one party has the guts to say that.

Trewser
All very nice until you realise that everything within the NHS (buildings, assets etc) will belong to and will be controlled by private companies.
And everyone who works for the NHS (doctors, nurses, site staff etc.) will be hired by and controlled by private companies.

Just like academy schools.
Private companies control them.

And it’s quite difficult to talk about in relation to anti semitism, because a) obviously Labour has been incredibly crap at dealing with anti semitism and b) “big business interests” and “media moguls” are used by anti semites as proxy for Jews......

All very nice until you realise that everything within the NHS (buildings, assets etc) will belong to and will be controlled by private companies

If it stays free at point of use then why is this an issue?

Sweden has lots of private involvement in their health care.

i was replying to the post that I quoted. Do you agree with it?

Yes I do. As I said at the end of that post The reason for the statement above is that only a very small number of wealthy people truly benefit from Tory policy. If you’re not one of them, why are you voting for them?

And I explained why I agree with it.

Life in this country under this government is absolutely brutal for huge numbers of people. It’s not brutal for me, but I couldn’t vote for a party who has pursued austerity for ideological rather than fiscal reasons. I cannot support a party who’s already paid out over £700m to firms like ATOS and Capita to specially go after disabled people. I’ve seen the horrific impact of these decisions, and they are choices, not inevitabilities.

Did you read any of the links I posted a couple of pages back of quantifiable harm done by this government?

It’s bizarre to me that that people are saying they cannot trust Corbyn - how can you trust this government? Look at the things BJ has done in his short time as PM. Do you want a man who’s having meetings with US pharmaceutical companies relating to the NHS to be in charge of negotiating trade deals with the US?

Do you want a man in charge of a no deal Brexit after he’s drawn up a Brexit withdrawal agreement which removes “level playing field” workers rights rules from the statutory section?

This is really bloody serious. So if people are going to slag off the leader of the opposition, at least quantify it with legitimate concerns, not “I just don’t trust him” as if this is independent thought rather than a deliberately placed emotion.

If it stays free at point of use then why is this an issue?

Because it’s a false economy - short term cash injection for longer term increased and uncontrolled costs. Of course healthcare will cost the country more if those companies need to make profits from their operations.

And why are you so sure it will stay free at the point of access? If we don’t do something, it won’t.

Personally I think we should pay something if we can afford to.

“ Personally I think we should pay something if we can afford to.”

Trouble is, so many people are unwilling to pay more tax...

I do wonder-thinking about spin doctors again- if Corbyn won’t use them out of some sort of point of principle. Because there are so many things that they could exploit but haven’t.

If it stays free at point of use then why is this an issue?

Because it’s a false economy - short term cash injection for longer term increased and uncontrolled costs. Of course healthcare will cost the country more if those companies need to make profits from their operations.

This. Private companies want investment and return. The NHS should never profit or make the rich richer.

But we do pay something if we can afford to - national insurance. There are so many issues that would come into play if we at the point of access:

• what would be charged for and what wouldn’t?
• how would we decide who can afford it and who can’t, and how much time and money would it cost to check and enforce this?
• the charge would be disproportionate as a percentage of income the poorer someone gets
• disproportionately impacts those with chronic illness, disability, etc (and we all know how terrible this government are at deciding who qualifies as disabled enough for support - millions would fall into that gap)
• once a precedent of charging is set, it could spiral out of control, especially with private interests involved
• those with financial difficulties will delay seeking treatment, making it much more expensive and difficult to treat them

Charging at the point of access is a terrible idea all round. Look at what’s happened to NHS dentistry. Dentists can’t afford to treat patients on the pittance of NHS cash they get, patients can’t access NHS dentists, millions go without dental care and wait until they have severe dental problems before seeing someone making it more expensive and difficult to treat them. Apply that to all healthcare and you’ll see the issue.

Paying NI is the best way to fund the NHS. We just need to pay more of it, to a government who are willing to use the additional funds to actually fund the NHS - the opposite of what we have now.

It’s funny how people think we should pay if we can afford to, yet are ideologically opposed to those who can afford it paying more tax...

It’s very simple. The NHS is not-for-profit. Private companies exist purely to make profit.

If you introduce profits as a factor into state funded healthcare, where will the profits come from?

Either the cost to the state goes up, or the quality of service is slashed. Or (usually) both. There’s no other way for it to work.

“It’s funny how people think we should pay if we can afford to, yet are ideologically opposed to those who can afford it paying more tax...”
To be fair, @Trewser doesn’t think that. But many do.

Deathgrip

Perfectly put again.

Thanks Bernard. I'm a big fan of higher taxes.

It's absolute bollocks that the media are misrepresenting Corbyn.

It’s not bollocks in the least - why do you think it is?

There’s some very good analysis here:
www.lse.ac.uk/media-and-communications/research/research-projects/representations-of-jeremy-corbyn

Some here:
www.mediareform.org.uk/blog/new-mrc-research-finds-inaccuracies-and-distortions-in-media-coverage-of-antisemitism-and-the-labour-party

There’s much more if you look

And if that's the case, and to see him talk in person is to suddenly see the light, then that's a pretty poor way to try and run a party!

How is this to do with how they’re running the party? How do you tackle such extreme media bias, where the owners of that media have vested interests in keeping Corbyn out of power?

During GE campaigning periods, the media are required to provide fair representation - and this is why, during the last GE, Labour made unprecedented gains in polls and such huge gains in votes that we were on the brink of a hung parliament when the polls closed. If you remember the coverage on the night of the GE and the following day, the media were incredulous at the result and how well Corbyn had done. This is what happens when the media have to represent him fairly.

The media have done a phenomenal job of turning socialism into a dirty word, but our most treasured national institutions (and the ones as such risk, such at the NHS, state pensions and state education) are socialist in principle.

I think I’ve responded to your questions about why the privatisation of the NHS in particular is dangerous, and I think I’ve been reasonable in my discussion, but there’s no response. I would genuinely like to know why you’re so opposed to Corbyn as a prime minister, especially in comparison to the prospect of another 5 years of this government who’ve done so much harm in the last decade, and especially the last 5 years.

The Labour party doesn't get as much coverage as the tories when there isnt a GE because they aren't actually in power