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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Jeremy Corbyn - PM by default?

999 replies

Considermesometimes · 06/11/2019 09:20

I am not a 'woke' labour supporter. I come from a long line of many generations of stout labour supporters. It would be unthinkable up to now in my family for anyone to vote for any other party. I would be shown the door at my gp's house for even having this conversation.

However, I am seriously seriously worried, I would go as far as to say terrified of the prospect of voting for Labour this time, and Jeremy Corbyn actually becoming Prime Minister.
I am interested to know how others are dealing with this problem.

I am worried that some of the policies such as seizing assets and homes from people, massive taxes etc. We are home owners and work very hard, it could all be jeopardised.

Forced closure of private schools in this area would be a complete and utter disaster. As it is we have to finish early on Friday afternoons, and do not have funds for every day stationary much less hundreds of extra children. What would happen to our already very full classes of 33-38 with all the extra children from the private schools? How is this even possible? And yet it seems Labour are fully committed to it when pressed on the issue.

The huge privatisation plan of utilities looks to cost around 200 billion pounds. I don't want our money spent this way! I would much prefer better schools and hospitals, and crime to be under control in this part of the country. I can't even get a GP app for my asthmatic dd at the moment. I could not care less about the Utilities or the railways etc. The LP just do not seem to understand at the moment what matters to most people.

The whole defence and nuclear issue. I don't feel we live in a particularly safe world. I like the fact we have some defences against the nut jobs in the Middle East or North Korea. The fact that other countries would not trust the UK under Corbyn to share intelligence with us, and his lack of decision making in a crisis, or even his basic understanding of deterrents is deeply disturbing.

I just don't think Corbyn is up to the job in any shape or form. Nor do most of the party.

I have thought about voting Lib Dems, but looking at the numbers that will almost certainly result in Corbyn being PM. There is almost no chance at all of Lib Dems getting 326 seats. A vote for Lib Dems is a vote for a Labour government probably propped up by the SNP who will demand another independence referendum in six months.

I am livid with the party for allowing this to happen, how is Corbyn still the leader of the party it is beyond me. How has this been allowed to happen? Chuka Umunna would have made an excellent PM, but all the best candidates are leaving the Labour party.

I don't think I can vote for anyone. That is my final conclusion, for the first time in thirty years I will not vote. What are you planning to do?

OP posts:
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Considermesometimes · 06/11/2019 19:20

Can I please ask why there are posts saying people are dying under the tories (120,000 was quoted back on 6-8) I can't stand the Tories, but I don't believe people are actually keeling over because they are in government. How anyone think they are?

In terms of parents raising their children with definitive political ideas, it is more prevalent than you think. I would not be welcome at christmas if my parents or grandparents heard this thread for instance. They feel incredibly strongly that Labour are the be all and end all. We have an equal split of remain and leavers in our family, and I suspect one or two relatives plan to defect to the brexit party, but I can not imagine they will openly say so. It is old fashioned with so many floating voters, but it is the case with many families.

OP posts:
noblegiraffe · 06/11/2019 19:49

I guess hospital cuts mean more people dying due to waiting longer for operations or inadequate care. Police cuts mean more people dying due to knife crime. Cuts to mental health services mean more suicides. People being homeless dying on the streets.

That sort of thing?

I guess if it wasn’t for ordinary people donating to food banks to make up for the inadequacies of the benefits system, things could be even worse.

Alsohuman · 06/11/2019 19:51

Can I please ask why there are posts saying people are dying under the tories (120,000 was quoted back on 6-8) I can't stand the Tories, but I don't believe people are actually keeling over because they are in government. How anyone think they are?

Homelessness, benefit cuts, universal credit, sanctions, NHS on its knees, bankrupt local authorities. How can anyone half sentient think they’re not?

MustardScreams · 06/11/2019 19:58

@Considermesometimes please stop with your faux naivety, it’s embarrassing. Just google tories preventable deaths, it’ll tell you all you need to know.

Graphista · 06/11/2019 19:59

“but I don't believe people are actually keeling over because they are in government.“

That is absolutely what is happening and it’s actually really fucking offensive your trying to deny that.

There are people literally dying of hunger, because they can’t store life saving medication properly, because they can’t afford to heat their homes, suicides because they aren’t getting mh support and aren’t getting enough income to live on...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-28864294

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/metro.co.uk/2019/06/06/dad-killed-dwp-cut-benefits-despite-chronic-illness-9831939/amp/

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/debt-ridden-dad-took-life-16621719.amp

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-tees-47332954

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/autistic-man-28-found-dead-20080050.amp

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/homeless-wheelchair-bound-mum-found-14100680.amp

Just a few examples have you been living under a rock not to see any?

There is I believe an ongoing attempt by one of the coroners societies or unions to get a FOI request answered regarding the number of people who’s deaths are directly attributable to benefits issues, I believe the govt have been stonewalling them on this.

And that isn’t including the preventable deaths of those not getting healthcare, safe clean and habitable housing and other needed support.

Labour voter my arse!

PaperWhiteDaisy · 06/11/2019 20:10

I’ve always voted conservative. I don’t like any of the recent conservative PMs, but the alternative of Corbyn is horrific. His policy plans around private education, land tax and lifetime gift (inheritance tax) are jaw-dropping. A vote for LibDems is a wasted vote in my opinion, as it will lead to a Corbyn government, so I have no option, but to vote conservative.

I didn’t actually vote in the EU referendum. That was a big error on my part, as I thought it wasn’t needed. Now I’m determined to have a say.

I am worried that not enough people have given enough care and attention to what the Labour manifesto covers. Even my highly intelligent DH and colleagues have largely ignored the issue!!!

Alsohuman · 06/11/2019 20:13

I am worried that not enough people have given enough care and attention to what the Labour manifesto covers. Even my highly intelligent DH and colleagues have largely ignored the issue!!!

Nobody knows what’s in the Labour manifesto, it hasn’t been issued.

BertrandRussell · 06/11/2019 20:14

I find it extraordinary that private schools are in so many people’s top concerns about Labour’s policies.

TiddleTaddleTat · 06/11/2019 20:16

Just been lurking on this thread...
seen Tom Watson has just stepped down as deputy and as Mp which is interesting..

Clavinova · 06/11/2019 20:21

Actually, I see that Channel 4 have recently published a 'fact check' on the 120,000 deaths and similar studies;

"The report’s authors, academics at University College London, compared trends in mortality in the years before the Conservatives took office in 2010 with the years after.They found that in the 2000s, death rates were falling while in the first three years of the 2010s, they increased."

"Is austerity to blame?"

"As FactCheck and Full Fact have reported before, this study’s findings should be handled with care."

"The researchers concluded: “we have found that spending constraints since 2010 especially [public expenditure on social care] may have produced a substantial mortality gap in England.”

"But other scientists have raised doubts."

"Professor Martin Roland, who specialises in health services research at the University of Cambridge, responded to the paper at the time."

"He pointed out that while something seems to have happened in 2014 that caused deaths in the UK to rise, “the link to health and social care spending is speculative as observational studies of this type can never prove case and effect.”

"Dr Richard Fordham, senior lecturer in health economics at the University of East Anglia, was also cautious about such “longitudinal studies,” noting that “different time periods are rarely identical.”

"So it may not be fair to compare trends from one decade (the 2000s) with another (the early 2010s), as this study has done."

"In other words, the paper does not prove that austerity caused the 120,000 “excess deaths” that the authors estimate may have occurred between 2010 and 2017 (based on three years’ worth of data)."

"In 2019 another study, this time from left-leaning think tank the Institute for Public Policy Research, estimated there were 130,000 deaths in England between 2012 and 2017 that could have been prevented."

"Unlike the UCL researchers, the IPPR don’t attribute the figure directly to austerity (although some outlets reported it as such)."

"However, the authors note that “prevention services and public health has been severely impacted” by the policy."

"But again, this is not the same as proving cause and effect—and the IPPR authors don’t claim to have done so."

"Jeremy Corbyn shared a claim from a left-wing commentator that “Austerity was […] paid for with people’s lives, 120,000 people.”

"But the study is limited by a number of factors.The “120,000” figure comes from data covering 2012 to 2014 which was then extrapolated to cover 2010 to 2017."

"More importantly, it does not prove that austerity policies actually caused the recorded and estimated extra deaths."

"Ultimately, we cannot say—based on the evidence in this study—that austerity policies caused 120,000 extra deaths."

www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-did-austerity-kill-120000-people

Waxonwaxoff0 · 06/11/2019 20:21

OP, I have been volunteering in a homeless hostel for a number of years and some of the things I have seen in recent times have convinced me that this Tory government is evil.

Pigwee · 06/11/2019 20:23

That is absolutely what is happening and it’s actually really fucking offensive your trying to deny that.

This with bells on. From your updates, I am struggling to believe that you are credible at all and not just trolling now. How have you not seen the homelessness increase on the streets or at least in the news, it is everywhere, the massive rise in people struggling to feed their families and survive. Rather than posting on a forum asking how it is possible people are dying, why not use the internet which you are clearly capable of doing and at least research it yourself.

To be honest, you are coming across as just downright offensive and nasty now. This whole thing of 'my business won't survive and what about my school' is the 'I'm alright jack' mentality of labour supporters who don't understand the principles of labour. You are clearly not in a vulnerable position and have no care for those who are.

If you were my family, I would not want you round for christmas either. Not because of you've changed your political views but quite frankly because you seem like an idiot. At least do your basic research before you start asking ridiculous questions. Do you even watch the news let alone look around you when you're walking around?

Also to PPs - re inheritance tax, does no one believe that everyone is entitled to a decent standard or education, housing and healthcare irrespective of your ability to pay or status? Why do you think that your children deserve better opportunities than anyone else simply because you've worked hard and can pass it on? That is exactly the sort of attitude and action that widens inequality which makes society worse for everyone. If you want your children to do well, do much to equip them with the skills needed to work hard and succeed in life on their own merit. Why on earth should anyone be entitled to wealth/property gifted to them simply because they were lucky enough to be born into that family.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 06/11/2019 20:39

There's another link about the "120,000 Tory deatths" thing here -
similar though not identical to the Channel 4 piece:
fullfact.org/health/austerity-120000-unnecessary-deaths/

Those it suits tend to present the claim as a fact, but as so often with these things it's not quite as simple as that

PaperWhiteDaisy · 06/11/2019 20:43

@Alsohuman - yes, you’re correct, it’s not the manifesto. I should have said party conference motions and policies that they had passed/discussed. I fear what will be in the actual manifesto

Alsohuman · 06/11/2019 20:47

No need to fear the manifesto, conference produces a fantasy wish
Iist.

CendrillonSings · 06/11/2019 20:53

I find it extraordinary that private schools are in so many people’s top concerns about Labour’s policies.

Perhaps because we’re not keen on some stupid socialists destroying one of the UK’s world-leading assets?

MustardScreams · 06/11/2019 20:55

World leading assets? Are you having a laugh?

Why don’t you worry about the actually important world leading asset: the NHS.

BertrandRussell · 06/11/2019 20:59

A world leading asset accessible by 7% of the population. When you think about all the other things we have to worry about in this country, the education of 7% of the privileged children should be way down the list!

Puzzledandpissedoff · 06/11/2019 21:01

No need to fear the manifesto, conference produces a fantasy wish
Iist

So do too many parties' manifestos. Since they're not legally enforceable it's only too easy to jettison their contents, and anyway plenty which governments do later appears nowhere in them

ZenNudist · 06/11/2019 21:06

Tory HQ at it again. You must realise that sensible people can see through this kind of BS.

You're massively stressed about something that a) isnt likely to happen and b) if it did happen would not be as detrimental as ypu describe and c) you aren't scared of the very real and present danger the UK economy, our standing in the world, peace in Europe and the dismantling of the NHS and destruction of public services in favour of tax breaks for the rich plus deregulation of the UK labour market that will take place under Tory rule.

Pull the other one love. Corbyns a pussycat compared to Boris the lying cheating immoral menace.

CendrillonSings · 06/11/2019 21:07

Why don’t you worry about the actually important world leading asset: the NHS.

What a joke - people don’t travel from across the world and pay £30,000-£40,000 a year to use the NHS as they do our private schools! Grin

A world leading asset accessible by 7% of the population. When you think about all the other things we have to worry about in this country, the education of 7% of the privileged children should be way down the list!

Yes, let’s destroy everything excellent in this country just because it doesn’t cater to the lowest common denominator. That’ll be just fantastic.

BertrandRussell · 06/11/2019 21:10
Grin

So private schools are more important than the NHS!

CendrillonSings · 06/11/2019 21:13

So private schools are more important than the NHS!

Well, they were around long before, and will hopefully be around long after. Fortunately there’s no either / or choice in this election - voting Conservative will preserve both! Smile

Clavinova · 06/11/2019 21:13

"A recent study by Oxford Economics reported that independent schools save the taxpayer £3.5bn, generate a further £4.1bn in tax revenues, contribute £13.7bn in GDP and support 302,910 jobs."

"Non-British pupils also contribute disproportionately to the UK economy, contributing £1.8bn to GDP, supporting 39,310 jobs and generating half a billion pounds in tax revenue."

"An increasing number of ISC schools operate campuses overseas, educating 39,616 pupils."

PaperWhiteDaisy · 06/11/2019 21:18

Private education is a sector accessed by a small minority. However, banning it impacts a much broader population:

  1. because it will add more burden to an over stretched state system;
  2. the wealthy will continue to provide an advantage for their DC at home with private tutors;
  3. the cause and effect will push up the house prices surrounding outstanding state schools, and
  4. more importantly, freedom of choice is important. What else will be banned? It seems like a race to the bottom. It is a dangerous slide towards Marxism
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