To think that calling transwomen Male terms is against guidelines?

[ChilledBee]

That said, it’s clear that most trans people find the use of pronouns or names that they or others have consciously rejected, to be hurtful and would therefore struggle to engage in a discussion with those who insist on using them. The same is true of the expression ‘Trans-Identified Male’ or ‘TIM’. Likewise, many feminists are affronted by the term ‘cis’ and ‘terf’, so using these terms will make civil debate less likely. As we’ve said, context is everything – but it’s likely that going forward our moderation team will delete these expressions

So this is what Mumsnet say yet they allow threads which refer to the possibility of trans women using a changing room as "blokes". If I were a Trans woman considering giving my opinion around my presence in female changing rooms, hearing everyone refer to people like me as a man or a bloke would "hurtful" and "I'd struggle to engage". Why is this allowed, Mumsnet?

We now believe that gender identity is on a spectrum, with male at one end, female at the other and a "diversity" of gender identities in between.

Possible. Perhaps even fairly likely. BUT, and there are two disclaimers necessary here ...

1. Sex is a distinct and separate category, not to be conflated with gender.

And 2. 'we believe' is just that. A belief. Not an unassailable theory or fact. The reality is that no one, humanities scholar, physical scientist, theologian, mystic [insert discipline of choice] or otherwise, has yet been able to determine where the line exists - if it exists - between the biology of human subjectivity and the extent to which that subjectivity is a social construct. No one. Despite a certain Assistant Philosophy Professor's pretensions to the contrary, through said Assistant Philosophy Professor's regular raiding of the boundaries of sports science ...

We now believe that gender identity is on a spectrum, with male at one end, female at the other and a "diversity" of gender identities in between.

See, I'd buy into that if they used 'masculine' and 'feminine', and also mentioned that anyone of either sex can be anywhere on their blooming sparkle-spectrum, though there are traditionally clusters near the feminine end for many female people and near the masculine end for male people.

The biological sex of transwomen is male though. It's not possible to change sex, only outward appearance. Thus if someone is a transwoman they are a biological male. You may feel it's impolite to refer to them by their biological sex. But you cannot force others to buy into this delusion, particularly when women and children's rights and safety are potentially put at risk because of it. Once I would have been quite happy to pretend and use people's prefered pronouns out of manners. But when that puts me and my children at risk then no more. Absolutely not. Trans ideology pushed it too far, and this is the result.

I expect the NHS to understand what male and female mean. They are not 'gender identities'.

Do you not think there's a downside for women in arguing that biological differences are facts that cannot be changed?

Women seem to have been arguing against this for many years now - that we can be firefighters, police officers, do very physical jobs despite, as a class being typically smaller and less strong than men. That our biology doesn't matter and can be overcome but now here we are insisting that biological differences in fact do matter and can't be changed or overcome.

I know what you mean and used to think that way, Zebras. But if a woman CAN do a physical job then she can do it, even if a man might do it without expending as much effort.

There ARE physical differences that can't be ignored. That means we need to pay more attention, not less, to ways of ironing out the disadvantages of smaller stature, lower muscle strength and female biology, rather than just treating men as the default setting and expecting women to fit a man-shaped mould.

... that we can be firefighters, police officers, do very physical jobs despite, as a class being typically smaller and less strong than men...

And that it doesn't make us any less 'womanly' or 'feminine' to do so.

Sorry, posted too soon. I'll be back!

That means we need to pay more attention, not less, to ways of ironing out the disadvantages of smaller stature, lower muscle strength and female biology, rather than just treating men as the default setting and expecting women to fit a man-shaped mould.

How is that accommodated for though in certain jobs? How can we as women argue that biology both does and doesn't matter and avoid arguing ourselves out of roles where it would be easy for women to be excluded on the basis of biology?

Not it isn’t the same. It is a private medical matter for parents and children. Yes this is a parenting site and one is supposed to support parents through medical, educational and other parenting issues not judge. Particularly when we haven’t walked in their shoes. I try not to judge or lecture issues other parents face particularly when I haven’t been though the same and have not a clue as to what the medical details of their individual children involve.

No, zebras, that's confusing 'class' and individuals.
If we look at statistics on strength and speed, they'll be clearly bimodal, with separate distributions for men and women. The fastest, strongest women will be significantly below the fastest, strongest men. So, when it comes to sports, where only the very top performers can win, we have separate categories for men and women.

But in most other cases, you don't need to be the best, you just need to be good enough. Most jobs nowadays don't rely on physical strength at all, and in cases where it's relevant, there will be some women who are strong enough.

We keep all jobs open for everyone (barring those with a genuine occupational requirement under the equality act) and use fitness tests where appropriate and necessary. And we keep maternity leave.

I am not judging them. I am saying I am worried we are getting this wrong. As we have got things wrong for children with autism over and over again. Professionals talk about medication in relation to children with autism all the time. All the time. We don't discuss individual medical history. We discuss the broader picture. Should medication be used to manage behaviours, should other methods be tried first. We talk about the risk of over prescribing of certain drugs. We talk about how our actions impact on children with autism. We are not judging we are trying to get things right.

I try not to judge or lecture issues other parents face

If a parent medicates their child and states that one of the reasons is that the child played with the ‘wrong’ toys, I’ll judge the fuck out of them, thanks

Because that is an accurate picture of the journey a family of a trans child has gone through.

To be fair most of my ire on this subject is reserved for the medical professionals experimenting on children

If it's a private medical matter for individual families should we just ignore all the whistleblowing clinicians from GIDS?

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/it-feels-like-conversion-therapy-for-gay-children-say-clinicians-pvsckdvq2?shareToken=1cb7c266cbafe72340af7bbf5e8ef1e2

We keep all jobs open for everyone (barring those with a genuine occupational requirement under the equality act) and use fitness tests where appropriate and necessary. And we keep maternity leave.

So do women have to meet the same standards as men? So a female police officer will be as physically capable of necessary as a male police officer?

All applicants take the same fitness test for the police.

Fifteen years ago part of my job was to support adults with learning disabilities move from long stay hospitals to homes in the community. We did this because professionals in previous years had begun to voice the views that those hospitals weren't the ideal place to live. Should those professionals not have raised those concerns? Should we have ignored the niggles we felt every time we walked into one of those institutions. It wasn't just medical professionals who voiced their concerns, it was social workers, parents, advocates. Parents had faced a complex heartbreaking journey to admit their children to those institutions but back then no one told us to shut up. As someone has mentioned there are clinicians voicing concerns.

Eugh I’m annoyed at the censoring on this site. It’s doing a disservice to children at risk of dangerous ideas. Another thread closed.

L00seM00se can you please explain how women and girls can tell the difference between honest genuine trans women wanting to be in female spaces for valid reasons, and predatory men who want to be in those spaces for predatory reasons? I asked a few pages ago and you haven’t replied.

And seeing as you now want to talk about trans children and treatments, can you explain the following:

If a male child has his body development suspended at Tanner stage 2 of puberty by puberty blockers and his penis, testes and prostate aren’t allowed to develop before going on cross sex hormones, how will that child, when an adult, ever have an orgasm?

And how is it you think that a concern about this outcome and the fact this is being done to children shouldn’t be held by other people and should only be between the family, child and doctors? Why is no one else allowed to be concerned about this?

@MarshaBradyo I har a comment deleted for being g transphobic for saying Fallon fox shouldnt have been in the ring with someone born female.

I have question @mnhq as to why my opinion is against talk guidelines given that the female suffered a fractured skull, in part because Fallons sex, determined he was so much stronger.

The post was actually about thinking about how gallons opponent feels and about how Karen Whites victims must feel. But that wasnt taken into account.

What was picked up is that I dont think someone born Male has a place in a fighting ring with someone born female.

Not had a response from me questioning, how this is against guidelines or how is it acceptable to deleted for having this view.

If a parent medicates their child and states that one of the reasons is that the child played with the ‘wrong’ toys, I’ll judge the fuck out of them, thanks

This.