To think that calling transwomen Male terms is against guidelines?

[ChilledBee]

That said, it’s clear that most trans people find the use of pronouns or names that they or others have consciously rejected, to be hurtful and would therefore struggle to engage in a discussion with those who insist on using them. The same is true of the expression ‘Trans-Identified Male’ or ‘TIM’. Likewise, many feminists are affronted by the term ‘cis’ and ‘terf’, so using these terms will make civil debate less likely. As we’ve said, context is everything – but it’s likely that going forward our moderation team will delete these expressions

So this is what Mumsnet say yet they allow threads which refer to the possibility of trans women using a changing room as "blokes". If I were a Trans woman considering giving my opinion around my presence in female changing rooms, hearing everyone refer to people like me as a man or a bloke would "hurtful" and "I'd struggle to engage". Why is this allowed, Mumsnet?

Sorry but there are transwomen who call themselves Male

I amn't too hot in names but Debbie Hayton? And the one who was taken to court recently for transphobia ( yes a biological female with strong female gender identity took a transwomen to court accusing them of transphobia)

Actually to be legally recognised as a gender reassigned transgender woman in the UK you have to formally be aware that your sex has not changed.

OP, do you mean "present"? Because if "presenting" is your bar, you're not following Stonewall's "acceptance without exception". You're gatekeeping.

So anyone writing “I believe that a transwoman is a man” should have their post deleted?

I doubt there are any people who readily identify as both a transwoman and male.

What are you basing this on? There have been a number of trans posters and speakers (some of whom have engaged with the feminism board discourse on trans politics) that identify as trans and have acknowledged that they are, in fact, male. They understand that their internal sense of self doesn't irradiate the scientific meaning of the class distinctions of male and female. Are their views invalid because they aren't 'trans enough' for you?

If you're referring to the M&S thread the point is people are concerned about "blokes" using the changing room. Nothing to do with trans.

If you open up spaces based on identity, anyone , including blokes who know and believe they are blokes, can access the space without fear of challenge. That's the bloody point!!

@drspouse

Neither of the 1st 2 who I know identify as trans women. They ID trans sexual/ trans person/ NB

I’d say trans women are male rather than ‘blokes’, what have we left with language if we can’t say XY is male.

People who use the term "trans woman" to identify are making a binary statement about their gender. A trans person isnt.... find me people who identify as a trans WOMAN and male.

A transvestite is completely different. That's like saying a lesbian is asexual because same sex relationship. Just makes no sense.

I think you definitely have a point op, but I also share concerns about stifling debate. For me, some of the debates on mumsnet have gotten me thinking about the conflicts between women’s rights and trans people’s rights and I do agree that it is wrong that people can’t even discuss without being labelled transphobic.

BUT, I think there are a lot of posters here who are hateful to trans people, and like you I feel calling transwomen ‘blokes’ is deliberately hurtful, compared with people exploring the questions around what does it mean to be a women. I also hate hearing MNers talk about ‘bepenised’ people etc.

I first thought it was all transphobic, but on most threads there is a mix of this sentiment (barely veiled but not always breaching guidelines), and intelligent and respectful posters who have real concerns that they want to explore, whilst recognising these are real people who are being discussed.

People call them men or blokes because if you were in a changing room and suddenly turned around to see a person exposing male genitalia then logic is going to tell you that’s a man

I think the problem is with self ID.

If a male transitions, and obtains a GRC then he legally becomes a woman, and should, of course be referred to as she/her.

But, the vast majority of Trans-women (conservative estimates of 85%) do not have a GRC. Some will live their full lives as trans-women, some will have just started their journey, and some have no intention of living as a trans-women.

So, if this were stringently followed, that would mean that the man/boy who used the female toilet at the Odeon last month, when I was walking past, because it was closer than the male toilet, telling his gaggle of teenage friends "it's ok, I'll just tell them I'm a woman, haha" should have been referred to by me as a trans-woman/she/her.

So, although I do not agree, in any way, that anyone should deliberately set out to hurt someone by deliberately using the wrong pronouns to describe them, it's not quite as easy as you make out.

Sex and gender are not the same though.
Trans women identity as women (gender) but are male (sex), if they weren’t male they wouldn’t be trans women.

I think there are issues. One thing I believe strongly is that a trans woman doesn't share my experience of being part of the oppressed sex since birth and not experiencing male privilege and that separates us and might mean I need my own spaces to discuss these experiences with people who have also had them.

I disagree that we should change all language in maternity to neutral terms. I think knowing when to differentiate those terms is necessary but I also suspect you're have a pretty good idea about when that will be relevant and it will be hardly ever.

What I think is just bigoted bullshit is calling trans women, "men" just to be hurtful.

it's ok, I'll just tell them I'm a woman, haha"

Something like this tells you that it isn't someone who should be in female toilets though. As would various other "tells". I think common sense would still prevail - Mike Tyson wouldn't be allowed in female spaces, Kelly Mahoney and FFS Caitlyn Jenner would. I say Caitlyn because despite being problematic as FUCK, CJ is genuinely a trans woman.

Just to play devils advocate @ChilledBee do you think it's bigoted to describe a trans-woman as male, or biologically male?

But it is always wrong to call anyone anything with the intent to be hurtful

. find me people who identify as a trans WOMAN and male

Blaire White

Of course that boy shouldn't have been in the female toilet. Distressing for women & trans-women alike. But, although he was being horrible, he was using self ID to use the female loo, and I would have objected if I had been compelled to describe him as a girl.

It's an absolute minefield, but I'm not convinced that telling people what words they can use is necessarily always the best way to encourage debate

Do biological women have the right to get changed in an environment which is exclusively female? If they do not, what impact does opening previously sex segregated spaces to whoever self identifies as female have on women’s privacy? It appears there is an attempt to totally silence any valid debate about this by making it impossible to discuss these matters at all. It’s all very 1984.

do you think it's bigoted to describe a trans-woman as male, or biologically male?

In most cases, yes, it is wholly unnecessary. Maybe in an academic debate about the science, you might use this premise to summarise your view but outside of that, I can't think of a reason you'd need to bang on about it TBH.

But transwomen ARE male.

You just muddle people by referring to them as female (quite a few people I know had assumed that transwomen are women who transition, and transmen are men who transition).

And the conflicts of interest arise because those male people are male, not because those male people are trans.

Blaire white identifies as trans gender as uses the pronouns she/her. She has also referred to herself as a trans woman many times. Had no idea who she was but found that from 2 mins on google. She did speak about detransitioning at one point but now still refers to herself by female pronouns.

Just for clarity @ChilledBee I will use any pronoun anyone asks me to, and would never go out of my way to use words to try to deliberately hurt a person. That would just be cruel.

But I do object to being compelled to not speak the truth. In my previous example, obviously it's not bigoted of me to describe that young wiseguy as a boy/man/male, so who decides at which point speaking the truth becomes bigoted? Is it when it is said, deliberately, to cause offense? In which case, I agree that using language deliberately to hurt is very unkind, but I don't feel we can legislate against telling the truth.