To think that calling transwomen Male terms is against guidelines?

[ChilledBee]

That said, it’s clear that most trans people find the use of pronouns or names that they or others have consciously rejected, to be hurtful and would therefore struggle to engage in a discussion with those who insist on using them. The same is true of the expression ‘Trans-Identified Male’ or ‘TIM’. Likewise, many feminists are affronted by the term ‘cis’ and ‘terf’, so using these terms will make civil debate less likely. As we’ve said, context is everything – but it’s likely that going forward our moderation team will delete these expressions

So this is what Mumsnet say yet they allow threads which refer to the possibility of trans women using a changing room as "blokes". If I were a Trans woman considering giving my opinion around my presence in female changing rooms, hearing everyone refer to people like me as a man or a bloke would "hurtful" and "I'd struggle to engage". Why is this allowed, Mumsnet?

It's not "a particular name" its biological sex. I happen to think coerced speech and being forced to lie is hurtful and offensive. Why do you insist that I must do so?

It doesn't matter. Why do you feel compelled to refer constantly to someone's biological sex? Why is that the most important part of them? Would you constantly refer to someone using their disability? That too is a biological reality but would you constantly point it out to them? Would you demand that they must be described by their disability?

I'm interested why you think I would make a distinction according to whether the trans person was male or female?

Because whenever a discussion about trans comes up on here GC posters only ever consider tw. This thread, discussing names used to describe trans people applies equally to TM and TW yet, again, posters are only discussing tw.

I've replied to your points but now I have to go so please don't tag me again demanding that I need to answer you.

On here it is said a lot about being men but you could say about a person irl they are a trans woman and stop there without the born male etc qualifier) can’t get into pronouns yet, whole other thing

Interesting Eresh

Why do you feel compelled to refer constantly to someone's biological sex?

That's how I perceive them. Its not personal. It's the truth. I'm not going to lie. You don't like it, they don't like it. Not my problem. I'll keep challenging your nonsensical belief system in the way I see fit.

If someone were claiming they were disabled and were trying to access spaces and facilities for people with that disability, and in addition to that claiming that they were actually 'disabling' better and actively trying to prevent actual disabled people accessing those facilities.

Then yes. It would be perfectly acceptable to tell them they were, in fact, an able bodied person and not disabled.

Because whenever a discussion about trans comes up on here GC posters only ever consider tw.

Yes, that's because the threats to women's rights are mostly about the clash with the entitled demands of MTFs that they are seen by everyone no different to women.

I've replied to your points but now I have to go so please don't tag me again demanding that I need to answer you.

Grow up. I tagged you once.

Why do you feel compelled to refer constantly to someone's biological sex? Why is that the most important part of them? Would you constantly refer to someone using their disability?

It's relevant when the topic is sex-based segregation. You might well bring up someone's particular disability (or indeed lack of one!) in the context of the Paralympics, where competitions are segregated by disability...

Ereshkigal and Grimbles great posts, I do wish MN had a "like" button!

All the "but what if they were having a heart attack or prostate cancer" is rubbish. If you are in an ambulance and they can see you are having a heart attack they will treat you

I know you have urgent matters to attend to, but tell that to the trans man who was in labour and the hospital team couldn't/wouldn't treat 'him' as a woman in labour for fear of litigation, and who then lost the baby?

I wouldn't say it was rubbish, more completely and utterly relevant.

So you're saying we shouldn't be allowed to state facts, OP?
What biological sex are transwomen, OP?

Consider these two statements:

There’s a two-legged person trying to compete in in Paralympic amputee category. This person claims they have no physical advantage.

There’s a male person trying to compete in the Olympic female category. This person claims they have no physical advantage.

Can someone tell me what the difference is?

Can someone tell me what the difference is?

The two-legged person might get their arse handed to them by the runners on 'blades'

They look fast on the blades, but the reality is they’re all slower than able-bodied athletes.

There's a very thoughtful thread over on FWR about whether the comparison between drag ('womanface') and blackface is useful or offensive. I hope it's still thoughtful, it's grown a few pages since I last looked at it. Posters are pointing out that, while in the UK, blackface makes us think of a shit 70s TV show, in the US it is inextricably linked to the Jim Crow era, birth of a nation and the lynching of thousands of black people - and that blackface was deliberately used as a tool to create the myths which legitimised those murders.

I've only skimmed the last few pages of this thread, but are there seriously posters here likening calling a tw male with using the 'N' word??

On a thread set up to tell FWR that we are all offensive meanies?

Fucking hell.

By the way, for those who think that pointing out tw are male is just like using the 'n' word, what is the new politically correct word for 'male' please? Because we're not going to stop pointing it out because it's the entire fucking point.

Why on earth should anyone in any situation be prevented from calling people who are male, male?

That's totalitarian in the extreme. I do not do totalitarianism.

I was making a cheap joke, NotBadConsidering. Your point is taken (although I believe the jury is still out about whether blades are performance boosting or not...there was some calculation that they'd give you a 7s advantage in the 400m).

I’ve said this before (about Mhairi Black) but I think all the people who say “I have no problem being in a changing room/toilet with a trans woman and I think you’re all bigots” should be made to drive to Kirkcaldy, go to the two houses of the two girls who were sexually assaulted and videoed in toilets by Katie Dolatowski, sit down, look those girls in the eye and say to them:

“You girls are bigots for not wanting trans women in the toilets with you.”

And then justify why they would happily allow organisations to loosen safeguarding in this area.

Go on. Off you go. Explain to those girls why they’re wrong. Explain to those girls why the women who are trying so hard to make sure it doesn’t happen to them or anyone like them again are wrong, and those who want to allow males unfettered access to women’s spaces are right.

The lack of empathy for the feelings of other women and girls is astounding.

Does anyone else not use trans woman at all like a pp?

GoodJobSteve

Oscar Pisorius is still the fastest runner to use blades, and he ran 45.39s, which is some 2 seconds slower than the fastest able bodied runner using legs and feet.

If I am talking about them as a group I will use transwomen.

When debating the impact on women and biology I would refer to them as male born.

Because in the debate it's important. Quite frankly, when it comes to women and girls being a risk, that trumps anyones feelings.

Male born is factual. Every TW was born a male.

NotBadConsidering

Great post!

So the proposed solution is not to use the word 'male', but the word 'transwoman' because everyone (or not) knows that transwoman means male anyway? Like a nudge, nudge, wink, wink thing. We'll say one thing but you know what we really mean. I'm not sure that's really the best way to go about it.

Let's for a moment forget the Stonewall Trans definition that fits much of the population and we'll assume we're just talking about people who suffer from gender dysphoria to an extent that they have undertaken medical steps to alleviate that dysphoria by presenting as the opposite sex (clumsy language, but I think that's what people tend to mean by the phrase 'genuine transwoman/en"). We'll leave wishy-washy internal feelings of undefinable gender identity out of it for now.

I honestly don't believe that people struggling with their mental health are helped overall by consistently lying to them for a long period of time. Pretending to believe that people can change sex really doesn't seem progressive to me. And we know that it's pretending because, as you say, people know that transwoman means male.