To think that calling transwomen Male terms is against guidelines?

[ChilledBee]

That said, it’s clear that most trans people find the use of pronouns or names that they or others have consciously rejected, to be hurtful and would therefore struggle to engage in a discussion with those who insist on using them. The same is true of the expression ‘Trans-Identified Male’ or ‘TIM’. Likewise, many feminists are affronted by the term ‘cis’ and ‘terf’, so using these terms will make civil debate less likely. As we’ve said, context is everything – but it’s likely that going forward our moderation team will delete these expressions

So this is what Mumsnet say yet they allow threads which refer to the possibility of trans women using a changing room as "blokes". If I were a Trans woman considering giving my opinion around my presence in female changing rooms, hearing everyone refer to people like me as a man or a bloke would "hurtful" and "I'd struggle to engage". Why is this allowed, Mumsnet?

I’d imagine anyone genuinely trying to trans would have enough understanding of this too and only move into female only spaces when the treatment course is a significant way through.

How do you know who is genuine and who isn't?

What is 'genuine' trans?

Changing rooms, when males are allowed, are not always "safe", actually. Twice in recent months two different men, on two different occasions, were caught with hundreds of images they'd taken from our local leisure centre's family changing room. Luckily the last guy was caught when one of the dad's who was with his son noticed the edge of a camera under his cubicle and his was able to pin the fucker down when he tried to run away when caught.

The point is, when these kind of men realise they can gain access to women and girls, they will imitate a transwoman just to get their pervy kicks. It's happened before. With increasing access being allowed to women, it will happen again, but no one cares. That guys phone had hundreds of kids naked on it, and all because he'd abused the family changing room situation. There will always be men who will abuse and get with what they can.

Why is it women who have to be made uncomfortable, put at risk and wait until there is some “intentional offence” (M&S’s words) committed against them before M&S swing into action?

If the official reason is that transwomen feel uncomfortable or unsafe in men’s changing rooms, why not apply that policy to them? “Don’t worry transwomen, you carry on changing in the men’s rooms and we’ll deal with any men who call you names or threaten you. Let’s stamp out male violence.” That really would be stunning and brave.

I am so, so tired of women being thrown under the bus. I am tired of my safety, dignity and privacy being worth nothing when weighed against a few woke points for a company on social media. I’m tired of other women joining the queue to shit on me because my feelings aren’t as important as men’s and they’ve been socialised to place me above women. I’m tired of 50% of the population losing rights we fought for, in some cases for decades, for 1% who have, it has to be said, played a blinder in the Oppression Olympics and convinced a chunk of the population they have it worse than anyone. I’m tired of hurt feelings being “literal violence” when actual, violent violence is leaving women and girls dead, raped and devastated every day. I’m tired of whataboutery and pseudo-science and otherwise-rational people agreeing that the Emperor’s new clothes are lovely while the Emperor is helicoptering his penis at us. I’m just so fucking tired.

*socialised to place MEN above women.

Given how unlikely some people think that any men would ever do anything naughty given easier access to female changing facilities, could those people please explain why they think we have single sex changing facilities in the first Place?

Why does the fact that unisex spaces see significantly more sexual violence not affect your position ?

Why does the fact that around 20% of women have suffered sexual violence which often leaves huge mental scars making them more scared of males not matter to You?

Are you actually believing that sexual violence will go down if we just let men see and do what they want?

Why does the fact that unisex spaces see significantly more sexual violence not affect your position ?

Because some put feelings above safety.

Not everyone's feelings. Just those of a certain few.

People need to cop on to life. There are homeless people dying in the streets but someone is upset because someone called them the 'wrong' pronoun. Fecking ridiculous. Call yourself anything you fancy but don't make it everyone else's problem.

If people are in any doubt about the desire of some men to take voyeuristic pictures of women, think about the recent upskirting legislation
Upskirting now a crime after woman's campaign www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47902522

and this case in Madrid in August 2019
Man accused of upskirting over 550 women in Madrid www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-49425694

Self ID access to changing rooms would allow men like upskirters free access to women’s changing rooms and any women who challenged them could be labelled transphobic.

*if you friend was inclined to challenge that, they would win.

You need to prove a pattern to says its transphobic. Rather than a momentary lapse with no ill will behind it.

Would it be a warning if you called a man presenting as a man, she?*

@Anotherlongdrive, I'm afraid I didn't put it in context. There was quite a long history between the pair of them, and the whole service had been emailed a few months earlier and told that X was transitioning and from such-and-such a date would be known as Y and referred to by male pronouns.

That email included a reminder about the organisation's diversity policy re transexuals and and made it clear that breaching policy can be disciplinary matter. Manager was a wanker and scared of friend's trans colleague, so issued the warning.

Friend thought about challenging it, but took it as a kick up the arse to leave, go to college and get a professional qualfication instead.

Trans colleague is generally regarded as a complete nutjob and now has a personality disorder diagnosis. Every time he behaves like a dick, he's treated with kid gloves because his behaviour is now a disability issue!

Thankfully, I've never had any dealings with him except for occasionally being on the same course for a day.

M&S are also forcing a situation that means their role will be addressing any harm after it's happened instead of trying to prevent it in the first place. Yet again women and girls are subjected to harm before anyone will do anything about it.
How about making sure it doesn't have the opportunity to happen at all?

I am also sick of the wharaboutery, NAMALT and women can harm too arguments. Women don't rape and kill other women. Women who have been the victims of male violence (shockingly high percentage of the population btw) matter less than the feelings of men who think they're women. I don't care if not all men are violent, enough of them are that we deserve safe spaces when we are at our most vulnerable.

No one has been able to answer what actually makes one a woman if it's not biology? Womanhood isn't a feeling or way of dressing so what are tw actually doing to live as women? The argument falls apart if you give it a mere moment of critical inquiry.
We can't self identify as another race, as disabled or as a different age than we are (recently proven in a court of law) so why is sex any different?

By all means, it should be acceptable in society for people to present however they like. Grow your hair, wear a dress and make up, call yourself Jessica, I don't care. But the reality never changes.

Also what do people who drank the koolaid believe twaw think about a biological male with a penis fooling a lesbian into a situation where they may have sex? TRAs have accused lesbians of transphobia when they don't want to sleep with said tw. Should these women be allowed to reject a tw based on their body?
Do you stand with women and believe that we shouldn't be made to feel bad about our autonomy over our own bodies.

Think about the consequences this has for all women. Our right to give, refuse and withdraw consent is being removed before our very eyes and worse than that, biological women are helping make it happen.

And to PPs crying "judgmental", read Jessica Yaniv's conversations with young women online. Then come back and honestly tell us if you'd be happy for your young daughter to be in a state of undress mere feet away from him?

If you can't be bothered, ask yourself if you'd be happy for a man to approach her and ask if she needs help inserting a tampon, or happy to see his surprise/disappointment about the lack of naked female bodies in the changing room? Would you be happy for her to be forced to touch his balls even if she didn't want to (then be sued for bring so hateful and literally violent)??

This is about more than the feelings of men.

If there weren't so many strong women on the FWR boards, I'd honestly despair at the state of this place.

@L00seM00se do you realise that when someone used the term 'bloke' in the thread the OP is talking about they were talking about men who present as men. Not TW?

Do you realise you daughter has a 50% chance of being sexually assaulted before she leaves school?

Who do you think is responsible for these assaults. People born men or people born women?

Not all men are perverts. We know this. But that doesnt mean that every female you know isnt a significant risk from people who are born men.

Spaces are segregated in sex to mitigate some of that risk. Except now it's been decided that it's a risk worth taking. Its better to increase the risk to females than risking offending someone born Male.

TW want to use womens spaces, but why? Theres only 2 reasons.

Either they dont feel safe around men - in which case they are acknowledging, that men pose a danger. So why do women have to move over and welcome some born Male into a women space. If people born Male are dangerous.

Or they want to be viewed entirely as a woman. They want this to the detriment to all other women. They dont see their privilege of being raised male and their expectation is that their wants are more important that the want of women to keep spaces sex segregated. Again cashing in on their make privilege. Their feelings trump womens feelings.

Why not look at what happened when Fallon Gox and Karen White were treated as women. What happened when everyone chose to ignore they were born Male?

Because if the language used for these 2 people had been scientifically accurate rather the language they wanted several women would have been saved from being, severely, harmed.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras you need to respond to the comments such as this. People didn't tag you because it's unnecessary and invasive. They quoted you. I'm tagging you now so you can respond.

Firstly, I don't need to respond to anything, I'm not at your beck and call.

Secondly, I got called away to deal with a sudden family emergency involving one of my children so no, I wasn't that bothered about returning to a thread more concerned with arguing semantics that with actual human beings. Think on about what people might be dealing with rather than running about MN tagging people in posts that demand responses

I'm sorry about your family emergency but you were the one who complained that no one tagged you. I normally don't tag people. I made an exception so you could easily see one of the questions you were asked. Assuming of course that you were engaging in good faith. And yes you do really need to respond to this because it's relevant to your position. Why are women's feelings not important to you? Why do male feelings trump them? Not very compassionate to those women, is it?

By which I mean, you are obviously free not to respond but then your argument looks a bit silly and knee jerk.

If I told you that I was born White British but really always felt I was a Black African American...... Would you consider me black which is how I identify?

Very good analogy. Rachel Dolezal did this and it was considered fraudulent and ridiculous.

Why is feminising up (in the stereotypical way) any different to blacking up, or lying about your age in order to gain access somewhere?

Ereshkigal

I will answer your post and then I'm going to the hospital. There is no justification for you demanding that I have to or need to do anything. I am not your employee.

I have never said that I don't care about women's feelings or that only men's feelings matter. You are concluding that because you choose to read my posts in that way.

I don't see it as being hateful to women if I call a transwoman a transwoman. I don't see it as hateful to men if I call a transman a transman. I can see no justification at all for repeatedly calling a tw a man or a bloke. I can see no justification at all for calling a TM a woman or a bird (is that the female equivalent of bloke? )

All the "but what if they were having a heart attack or prostate cancer" is rubbish. If you are in an ambulance and they can see you are having a heart attack they will treat you. If you say I'm a transwoman drs will know that you are at risk of having prostate cancer (not that they screen men particularly well for prostate cancer anyway).

If you know that a person finds a particular name hurtful or offensive why would you insist on calling them that? Regardless of what that name is? There is just no need. Tw perfectly describes those people that are tw. It differentiates them from women and from men. There is nothing to be gained by insisting that they are called men. TM describes those people perfectly. Would you insist on calling a TM a woman?

Being trans doesn’t make you a predator

No but being born male does make you much more likely to be ....

Are some women so blind to the fact that predatory men will take full advantage of male bodied people having full and unfettered access to the womens changing rooms?

In fact it would probably be safer for women to use the mens as any decent man would not use the womens changing rooms anyway!

If you know that a person finds a particular name hurtful or offensive why would you insist on calling them that?

It's not "a particular name" its biological sex. I happen to think coerced speech and being forced to lie is hurtful and offensive. Why do you insist that I must do so?

Would you insist on calling a TM a woman?

I'm interested why you think I would make a distinction according to whether the trans person was male or female?

I don't see it as being hateful to women if I call a transwoman a transwoman

Yes, good for you. Other people feel differently. This isn't about what you personally are supported to do, this is about you trying to control what others say and do because you personally put male feelings first.

I feel like I understand both sides (maybe not!) but can I ask do people who say trans women are men / not women ever just use the term trans woman without a qualifier?

Because I think XY is male / trans women are male but I don’t feel I have to qualify that unless I have to.

So my question is, particularly to the pp who used the term male-bodied, but anyone really do you just use trans women as a term (still knowing they are male but not stating it)?

Then this follows that the single sex spaces should be protected.

I never use that term. I see it as gaslighting.