Jeremy Corbyn

[salcombebabe]

I see so many posters saying they won’t vote for Labour as they don’t like Jeremy Corbyn - why? If the Labour policies are good then why not vote for those rather than the leader?

the poverty and insecurity that is now normal for working families, working 2 jobs under zero hour contract conditions to pay rent to some idle rich landlord.

This is the heart of the problem for Labour under Corbyn and, before him, under lovely Ed. The country is simply divided into ‘rich’ and ‘Foodbank users’. The rich are divided into ‘nice’ (Labour voting) and ‘not nice’ (Tory voting). Everyone else is poor.

There is a vast middle ground. These people are not ‘well off’. They don’t need food banks. They don’t want ‘free’ broadband if it means higher taxes. They don’t have public sector pensions. Their pension pots actually depend on the stock market. They don’t give a shit who owns the railways as long as the trains turn up on time. They don’t own a Prius.

These people really don’t like the idea of assets being ‘taken’ by the state. They may not privately educate their children but the idea of preventing other people from doing so makes their skin crawl. No one likes to be told what they can do with their money.

Alienate the ‘middle’ and Labour can do nothing to help the really vulnerable.

Labour are currently unelectable. The really vulnerable will never be able to sustain their families with Jezza’s sound bites.

Corbyn is a more decent person

A decent person wouldn’t have taken a party devoid of antisemites in 2015 only to somehow find it stuffed full of such racists after just a few years of his leadership!

Certainly is a vast middle ground. I'm in it, just about. I've watched over years as the richer part of that middle has slowly shifted to the right. I actually think you're right, that the country's discourse and narratives have shifted too far away from central to have a fair look at the system as it is now and have a fair look at the economics concerned. We've had too many people selling and spreading the idea that the principle of any form of even part state ownership is fundamentally bad, even in the face of both modern theory and empirical examples in Europe demonstrating the reverse.

To have a successful safety net for the bottom low income families, you need to have wealth generators and business thriving to provide a strong economy. Given that we do not have a successful safety net for the bottom low income families now, does that mean that we agree we also do not have thriving wealth generation, whatever the multiply-gamed statistics from the government claim? Would you agree with many modern economists who recognise that in fact the relationship between the two is rather more complex than often supposed? That perhaps, even, cause and effect between the two is too often written the wrong way round - that in fact we need the successful safety and infrastructure net first to provide the background for wealth creation?

A decent person wouldn’t have taken a party devoid of antisemites in 2015 only to somehow find it stuffed full of such racists after just a few years of his leadership!

Or alternatively, that idea could be something that's been blown up out of all proportion by hostile parties who are running absolutely terrified at the merest possibility that the 'no choice' narrative they've been pushing is finally getting some serious reconsideration and opposition.

Corbyn is a more decent person by order of magnitudes and will make a better leader

Define decent. Define good leader.

I’ve been using this example a lot lately...

In the last 20 years, which education secretary really was the most passionate and caring about the educational achievement of all pupils? Who was absolutely dedicated to ensuring that every pupil - regardless of background - received the same academic education as the most wealthy and able students.

Answer: Michael Gove

Say what you will about him, he was absolutely passionate about his own vision for education. Fucking deluded, yes, but very passionate. He believed all pupils should receive the same ‘grammar school’ education he did in order to lift themselves up. He believed no schools should hide behind ‘lesser’ qualifications to avoid putting disadvantaged children through rigorous academic courses. He believed ‘leafy’ schools shouldn’t hide behind overall good statistics, and rooted out their ‘minority’ failing students.

Was he a great leader and education secretary? Hell, no. He didn’t know when to stop, so just changed everything all in one go and never stopped to question himself. As a teacher, I ‘survived’ the Gove years, but only just.

Was he ‘passionate’ and ‘caring’ - yes. No one who ever listened to him or spoke to him personally could ever doubt it. Misguided, yes - but lacking in morals, no.

Being passionate and caring does not make someone a good leader.

Corbyn is a more decent person

What, like nice?

What I don’t understand is that Labour want a second referendum on the EU. If Remain wins that referendum, does that then mean that Corbyn’s plan to renationalise many of our services will be rendered null and void? Asking as I thought I read somewhere that renationalising wouldn’t be allowed under EU regulations. Can anyone enlighten me?

One the topic of decency, I find it highly amusing how someone who espouses to lead the Conservative party is unwilling to acknowledge one (or more?) of his own children. What a guy.

and may provide a route to avoid a massive recession thanks to Johnson’s Brexit

Corbyn is not going to provide a route out of a brexit recession, he is going to create another recession overnight Cam, why? Because he is just about to spend what is amounting to nearly a trillion pounds on nationalising companies that do not nationalising! All investment will drain out of the country over night as companies will take fright. He is taking over the companies and private schools by force. You should be deeply worried about this. How can any decent person possibly consider plunging out country into a crisis of this magnitude?

Corbyn will send out deficit through the roof, and you and your kids, and quite possibly your grandchildren will be picking up the bill my friend.

The policies and pledges are so off the wall, so outlandish, even for committed lifelong Labour voters, that it occurred to me that labour are deliberately trying to lose the election. It is almost impossible to put together a less appealing campaign than the one Labour have produced.

It is hard to imagine who would ever vote for labour as it stands, even if you are using food banks and are on benefits, one of momentum's targets, you would surely be even more vulnerable to the economy crashing? You would be even more frightened having an unstable leader at the helm because you have less ability to protect yourself from the fallout.

It has crossed my mind that this damaging and harmful campaign has to be deliberately put together to fail, there is no other explanation. No one could be this stupid as to produce a nationalisation programme after twelve years of severe austerity and actually think this is what people want??

I feel so badly let down by labour. Momentum have been allowed to take over the party, and now we are all left in a truly dire situation.

With a little luck Momentum will be obliterated in this coming election, and we can put our labour party back together again afterwards, so that we can once again win elections, inspire confidence and make the changes needed in our society. Like a phoenix rising from the ashes, that is our only hope.

@considermesometimes
The Labour Party will call another referendum through which the electorate will hopefully reverse a decision that has so far seen:
Honda, Ford, Barclays, Dyson, Llyods, Unilever, Jaguar, British Steel, HSBC, Airbus, Panasonic, MoneyGram, UBS, P&O, Michelin, AXA, Bentley, Toyota, 20 more I can’t be bothered to list...upsticks and or cut jobs/operations.
Let’s dissuade any more from following.
A healthy economy needs investment. Not chasing off the worlds best corporations to the continent and a clownish PM who doesn’t know how many children he has fathered saying “fuck business” and leaving services to rot.

@Considermesometimes
Funny that you’re a “lifelong Labour voter”. I’m a life long Tory with pictures of Maggie Thatcher adorning every inch of my house. But I’m voting Labour this time because the Tories have swung so far to the right and are led by a pillock who can’t answer a simple question without “Er, um, Er, um, Er, um, well the way, they way, the way I would answer that, Er, um, Er, um, Britain is amazing!!!! “

I can't stand Boris either, but do you think labour is going to attract back business with the onslaught of labour market changes they're committed to? So many I can't keep up but wage hikes, gender pay interference, forcing part time parents on businesses to name a few.

Leaving aside the diabolically bad signal to business nationalising so many things sends and compensating share holders with govt bonds...

personally as a parent, if my firm had good reason to think my job couldn't be done part time, I'd want to seek another job or accept it than having all of us getting stressed by them being forced to accept me part time. It'd be terrifyingly uncomfortable on an interpersonal level.

www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/nov/15/free-broadband-essential-uk-compete-john-mcdonnell-labour-policy-openreach

This is interesting, how much it will cost.

elrup, EU laws on state aid prohibt aid to industry unless approved by the EU so I think it is likely Corbyn may not be allowed to do a lot of those things he plans unless a second refereund vote were to be "leave". The principle behind state aid law is a good one in EU terms - that states shuld not prefer their own countrie for subsidy so eg if a British plant or bank is failing the state should not help that over say helping an Italian bank., If they want to do so as many did after 2008 then they have to make an application to the Eu for permission.

Great post, Considermesometimes, especially about the potential to build something better if Labour lose this time. As a classic floating voter, I'd have thought even staunch Tories would appreciate an effective opposition who'd be able to hold them to account or at least avoid the worst excesses

Interesting, too, that we're just not seeing glee over Labour's latest "brilliant (broadband) policy" - not even among the fervent Labour supporters on here. It seems incredible to me that they'd actively want to throw the election, but I'm starting to wonder if you've got a point

I saw a tweet about teaching your kids what happens when there’s a Labour government:
"Get them to clean the bathroom and pay them £10.
Then take £7 off them and give it to the lazy kids laying in bed next door."

It's not far from the truth with the giveaways he's promising that all need funding. Labour have always tried to buy votes through giveaways but this is getting ridiculous now.

Having said that, if he throws in a full Sky package with the stolen broadband, I might vote Labour myself.

How on earth can you privatise our services when we are in the EU?

State aid was formally introduced into European Union statute law by the Treaty of Rome where it classified state aid as being any state intervention that distorted competition law. ... It stated that any aid given to a company by a state within the EU would generally be incompatible with the EU's Common Market.

Cam, what is unilever doing?

Corybn isn't nice and that's the problem. I find him and the core of him and his comrades chilling. I don't trust them, they are the true embodiment of wolves in sheep's clothing.

It would be allowing a cult in. It really wood. They are so entrenched and brain washed.

Would!

I assume you mean nationalise?

Utilities are different, they have to be either publicly owned or regulated private monopolies so they have special status.

Great posts, consider me.

I agree. It does seem like they are willfully trying to loose the election!

It's bizzare , off the wall. Also agree about people at the bottom. Resources, funding, food banks always most stretched at the bottom, why add more people to their number with corybn trashing the economy.
But he wants us all trashed and poor and equal then they can set up factories and sell us all identical jumpers, donkey jackets and Washing machines that don't work.

I must admit I dislike trying to pin down posters on one question but I do want to know what Unilever are doing to leave the UK directly due to brexit... From cam.

Unilever is no longer planning to move its HQ to Holland but only because its shareholders kicked up a stink. It was planning to go at the end of last year.