To ask supporters of porn to read this

[SmileEachDay]

meaww.com/missing-teen-adult-video-pornhub-modelhub-snapchat-periscope

A missing 15 year old girl was spotted in videos hosted by Pornhub. Those of you who are “ok” with porn - are you “ok” with this?

The sentence the man involved in making the videos is for another thread, but is shocking.

Can someone, preferably Reanimated explain what the hidden agenda is please?

I think porn is in the car wash or nail bar category- it’s not something you need, and it’s easy not to use.

I think it's not even in the car wash / nail bar category. However much exploitation is involved in those things, the car will still come up clean and the nails will still look pretty. I don't understand how the porn still gets you off.

The whataboutery essentially translates to "I don't want to face the fact I might have cum to a clip of someone being raped or coerced and I want to keep using porn so I'm going to attack you for not being perfect using a weak analogy". The argument of someone who has no argument.

That's not what I'm doing at all. My point is simply that a small minority of people being exploited in a certain industry is not a reason for getting rid of that industry entirely.

If the point is reducing harm, there are a lot of potentially better candidates than young, first world women making porn videos. These arguments always come across as puritanical and weirdly anti-schroedingder. It assumes that absence of concrete evidence that you are not seeing coercion, you should assume coercion is present. Also, nothing is proof that coercion is not present.

I don't understand how the porn still gets you off.

Why do you think it’s a “small minority”?

@BertrandRussell, you asked earlier how proper regulation of porn can be achieved. I’m interested in knowing your - and anyone else’s - views on how this could be implemented?

@frostedviolets at 11.53 gave a pretty good response I thought. The thing is, whether we enjoy watching porn or whether we don’t, We all agree exploitation in any industry should not be supported. Porn is always going to be around, so might the debate not better be served in discussing what might help reduce exploitation rather than shaming those who do enjoy it? I don’t think any of us can be 100% sure that we have used a service or bought a product that has not involved some sort of exploitation, however hard we try.

@over50andfab Spot on!

@BertrandRussell
OK- here’s another question for the people who use porn. Are you completely sure you have never watched an exploited woman?

Of course not, but that's an impossible bar. I'm not completely sure that the people working in my local Lidl are there of their own free will (as much as a job can be), but I just assume that they most likely are, otherwise they'd be doing something else.

So you think that people working in Lidl are as likely to be exploited as people working in the sex industry?

@ over50andfab
I have absolutely no idea how the porn industry could be regulated. Surely it’s for the people saying that’s the way forward to suggest how it should be done?

@BertrandRussell

Surely it's impossible. Regulation means laws. Laws are limited by territorial jurisdiction. The Internet is not. Just google "Viagogo litigation" for an example that is not to do with porn.

For example, if the UK passed laws banning expoitative porn, they would not prevent clips of expoited women in any country being uploaded to Pornhub. They would probably not be enforceable against Pornhub. And making it an offence for people to download clips knowing that the actors may be abused? Good luck with proving it.

It won't be possible to do anything until the UK or other countries start implementing firewalls. I suspect this will happen in the next twenty years or so, but for reasons other than porn.

@TomPinch good points. I would have liked to see the implementation of having to sign into/show proof of age when accessing porn to help prevent underage viewing which didn’t go ahead..I wasn’t quite sure what happened with that so just googled this and it seems proof of age will be needed from next July
www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/uk-porn-block-change-laws-15979189

Exploitation generally of anyone is not a good thing - something I think we all agree on (whether we enjoy watching porn or not). Actually knowing the facts also helps rather than making assumptions.

How is the UK government going to prevent people simply using a VPN to get around this? Installing a free VPN on, say, a smartphone takes 5 minutes, is easy, and is free.

It won't be possible to do anything until the UK or other countries start implementing firewalls. I suspect this will happen in the next twenty years or so, but for reasons other than porn.

Yes, absolutely.
I do not consume porn nor do I care to defend people's right to consume pornography. But it seems like this might be a case of the risk outweighing the potential gains.

Anyhow, laws aren't necessarily limited by a state's territory. At least not in an absolute manner.
It's absolutely possible to criminalise certain acts committed abroad (treason, terrorism, pedophilia...) and to prosecute the perpetrators... which has indeed been done.

In a European context one might argue that comprehensive reform and a closer cooperation in regards to JCCM/CJMP may be beneficial. I do however very much doubt that this would be undertaken with the intention of creating some sort of standard for ethical pornography. (although the argument of trying to prevent human trafficking and exploitation may of course be beneficial from a political point of view.)

Anyhow. banning porn is imo very unlikely to be successful and trying to do so may ultimately be detrimental the people involved ('actors' and viewers, btw).

Which is why a decriminalised and strictly regulated sex industry must be the solution. But that would depend on political will, capital and international cooperation. 🤷🏻‍♀️

My point is that I don't "know", neither do you.
I'm not even sure what you're referring to as exploitation.

Some people are talking about actual crime being involved and others are talking about work involving sex being inherently exploitative. I'm not sure where you stand as an individual.

How are people comparing working in Lidle to being raped and beaten on film and then having thousands of people wank over your pain and humiliation.

Let's just have a bit of honesty here, all the porn supporters just don't give a shit if the women they are viewing were coerced, trafficked, injured, raped whatever. They are just pictures on a screen to them. I don't believe for one minute these people are only watching "ethical" porn. They will be clicking through links on the Internet with no idea how those women came to be in those films.

Out of curiosity, am I the only woman on here who likes gay male porn? (It's not my motivation, but it does avoid all the ethical dilemmas of exploitation of women ).

Fiddle
'Just' the ethical dilemmas of exploitation of men and boys...?

How are people comparing working in Lidle to being raped and beaten on film and then having thousands of people wank over your pain and humiliation.

Can you link me to one of these recorded rapes?
I'd like to report it to the police, seeing as a crime is being committed.

“Let's just have a bit of honesty here, all the porn supporters just don't give a shit if the women they are viewing were coerced, trafficked, injured, raped whatever”

@Lessthanzero well that is absolutely untrue and why would you think so little of those of us who watch porn? It’s a bit like me saying the same of anyone who partakes of any service where exploitation of men, women or children might happen.

@Fiddlesticks yes I’ve watched gay male porn, though tbh I prefer MMF.

Out of interest, did anyone see the documentary Mums Make Porn? It was very interesting and mentioned some ethical pornographers like Erika Lust. It also mentioned a number of feminists who have launched porn websites.

Let's just have a bit of honesty here, all the porn supporters just don't give a shit if the women they are viewing were coerced, trafficked, injured, raped whatever. They are just pictures on a screen to them

🤦🏻‍♀️
Utterly ridiculous.
And so so offensive.

Virtually no one who views porn is in support of trafficking and abuse.
Every single person who posted on here in 'support' of porn wanted regulation, you know, to protect people from harm...

I wonder if you'd dare be so appalling and rude to people in real life.

I've been reading through this thread, leaving the odd comment, the attitudes displayed are just vile.
Utterly vile.

I suppose the chocolate and avocado eaters and coffee and tea drinkers don't give a shit if the children who worked on the farms were coerced, injured, beaten etc.
Just delicious creamy food and drink to them right?!

And I suppose everyone who buys clothes on the high street just don't give a shit if the women and children who made their clothes were coerced, injured, living in squalor, getting paid so little they are starving.
Because they are just nice clothes right?!

And I suppose everyone who buys fresh fruit and veg rather than growing their own don't give a shit if the people working on the farms were trafficked here, lied to, forced to work in appalling conditions, paid absolute pittance, living in unsanitary conditions, never being able to see their families again or earn enough to get a better life.
Because it is just lovely fresh fruit and veg to them right?!

As I see it, you have a moral objection to porn.

It has very little to do with the exploitation of women, if it was, there is an absolute wealth of industries just as abusive that you could campaign for greater regulation of that are used in far higher quanties than porn.

But interestingly, I see no real massive condemnation or outrage of the appalling treatment of people in so many very industries.

No apparent thought to the children missing body parts from injury or being abused by gangs or people dying in lorries being trafficked etc etc.

The way you and others who dislike porn speak of those of us who watch it is absolutely despicable.
'Rape apologists' etc etc.
How bloody dare you.

If you are using your phone to go on MN, there is a very good chance that people have been abused and exploited in the production of the phone you are using.
It really isn't all that difficult to source porn that has been produced by consenting adults. It sometimes seems like people who take the 'all porn is evil' line are the ones who would rather not look at the cruelty involved in the leisure activities they see as, well, ordinary and acceptable.

It's pretty much impossible (unless you are completely without resources and surviving ongoing exploitation yourself) to live a life that doesn't involve some aspect of benefiting from the exploitation of others (your food and clothes, your household goods, the energy supplies you consume). If you are a poor person in a wealthy country, then your choices with regard to food/clothing may be restricted to less-ethical or 'not sure of the provenance' because your first priority is going to be feeding and dressing yourself/your DC.

Living a life totally free of exploitation is a big challenge. Trying to ban porn while not listening to those involved in it and trying to make it less exploitative is not helpful.

The thing about pornhub is they ignore requests to remove videos. Videos that are clearly hidden camera are not removed. When a woman spots herself in a revenge video it's not removed. They don't care as long as they are getting their views and money.

@Lessthanzero Don't know what these posters think ethical porn is but I bet it doesn't involve them actually buying porn from an independent model. It probably just consists of scouting free sites for 'romantic' and 'massage' porn.

The thing about pornhub is they ignore requests to remove videos. Videos that are clearly hidden camera are not removed. When a woman spots herself in a revenge video it's not removed. They don't care as long as they are getting their views and money

Yes and this is absolutely appalling.
And one of the things that could be ended with much greater and tighter regulation.