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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To ask supporters of porn to read this

608 replies

SmileEachDay · 29/10/2019 16:25

meaww.com/missing-teen-adult-video-pornhub-modelhub-snapchat-periscope

A missing 15 year old girl was spotted in videos hosted by Pornhub. Those of you who are “ok” with porn - are you “ok” with this?

The sentence the man involved in making the videos is for another thread, but is shocking.

OP posts:
OnlyTheTitOfTheIceberg · 31/10/2019 14:20

If you consume porn, then you are prepared to accept that the person/people you are wanking to did not enthusiastically consent because at present there is no way to know that the performers are not coerced in some way. Which makes you complicit in exploitation, trafficking and rape.

Until people start voting with their feet, nothing will change. I don't use nail bars or car handwashes because I can't trust that the people working there haven't been trafficked. It's not difficult to find other ways to do my nails or wash my car. And I don't use porn because I don't want to risk getting off to someone else's rape. There are plenty of ways to gain sexual satisfaction that don't exploit other human beings, and if all else fails I won't die if I don't have an orgasm on any given day.

PBo83 · 31/10/2019 14:29

If you consume porn, then you are prepared to accept that the person/people you are wanking to did not enthusiastically consent because at present there is no way to know that the performers are not coerced in some way. Which makes you complicit in exploitation, trafficking and rape.

So, to clarify, anyone who consumes any form of pornography is complicit in exploitation, human trafficking and rape? (I'm genuinely just confirming this is what you mean).

AnalFloss · 31/10/2019 14:31

If you consume porn, then you are prepared to accept that the person/people you are wanking to did not enthusiastically consent because at present there is no way to know that the performers are not coerced in some way. Which makes you complicit in exploitation, trafficking and rape.

What you're getting at here is the idea is that there is a chance of exploitation having occurred at some point in the supply chain. You're wording it deliberately salaciously, but that's the case for absolutely everything.

Do you know who made the clothes you're wearing?
Do you know if anyone has developed ling cancer as a result of burning plastics to get the materials to build the device you're posting this from?

The only way you can be 100% sure that your actions aren't having a negative impact on someone, somewhere is to go back in time and stop yourself being born.

The advantage that sex workers have is that we know for a fact that some people enjoy doing it and even more aren't significantly more negatively impacted by it than any other job. You can't know for sure about the circumstances of any individual you're watching do anything.

BertrandRussell · 31/10/2019 14:35

And let the angels commence their dancing upon the head of a pin....

BertrandRussell · 31/10/2019 14:38

Incidentally, if I was in a shop that sold t shirts and which didn’t say which were fair trade and which weren’t, I wouldn’t buy a t shirt.

Original poster
SmileEachDay · 31/10/2019 14:53

What you're getting at here is the idea is that there is a chance of exploitation having occurred at some point in the supply chain

Or it’s much more direct and the woman (or possibly child) you are watching is directly, at the moment of filming, being raped.

OP posts:
PBo83 · 31/10/2019 14:54

Incidentally, if I was in a shop that sold t shirts and which didn’t say which were fair trade and which weren’t, I wouldn’t buy a t shirt.

But the point is that, regardless of the 'fair trade' label, you can never be 100% sure that there has been no exploitation in the supply chain.

What you can do is shop at places that puts in place processes to minimise the risk of exploitation in their supply chain. In the same way, you can consume porn from studios knows to prioritise the welfare of their performers.

PBo83 · 31/10/2019 14:54

*known

AnalFloss · 31/10/2019 14:57

@BertrandRussell
If you want to go down that route, the default is that appearing in porn whilst underage, trafficking and rape are all crimes. Mainstream porn from mainstream companies is the equivalent of a fairtrade logo, for what little that means.

PBo83 · 31/10/2019 14:59

If you want to go down that route, the default is that appearing in porn whilst underage, trafficking and rape are all crimes. Mainstream porn from mainstream companies is the equivalent of a fairtrade logo, for what little that means.

That's what I tried to say but you put it better.

OnlyTheTitOfTheIceberg · 31/10/2019 15:00

The whataboutery essentially translates to "I don't want to face the fact I might have cum to a clip of someone being raped or coerced and I want to keep using porn so I'm going to attack you for not being perfect using a weak analogy". The argument of someone who has no argument.

Once I know that there is a reasonable chance that a supplier or retailer profits from exploitative practices, I try - so far as is practicable - to find an alternative that does less harm, or if it's a non-essential service I stop using it. I don't defend Topshop for using 14 year olds in their supply chain. That's hardly rocket science or revolutionary behaviour. Why are porn enthusiasts so wedded to their potentially dodgy outlets? Go and have a fap to Literotica, FFS.

AnalFloss · 31/10/2019 15:03

Or it’s much more direct and the woman (or possibly child) you are watching is directly, at the moment of filming, being raped.

The vast majority of the time, that's not the case.

Original poster
SmileEachDay · 31/10/2019 15:06

The vast majority of the time, that's not the case

Um..you can see the issue with that, right?

OP posts:
OnlyTheTitOfTheIceberg · 31/10/2019 15:06

The vast majority of the time, that's not the case.

Can we see the stats that make you able to assert that please?

PBo83 · 31/10/2019 15:09

Once I know that there is a reasonable chance that a supplier or retailer profits from exploitative practices, I try - so far as is practicable - to find an alternative that does less harm, or if it's a non-essential service I stop using it. I don't defend Topshop for using 14 year olds in their supply chain. That's hardly rocket science or revolutionary behaviour. Why are porn enthusiasts so wedded to their potentially dodgy outlets?

I think most people here, myself included, who don't oppose porn 'as a whole' wouldn't 'defend a dodgy outlet'. In fact most people seem to agree that there needs to be more regulation to prevent exploitation.

As for your being "attacked". The only 'aggressive' posts here seem to be from those who object to all porn in all guises. Implying that anyone who consumes porn is 'complicit in rape' or is 'wanking over children being raped' etc.

BertrandRussell · 31/10/2019 15:12

OK- here’s another question for the people who use porn. Are you completely sure you have never watched an exploited woman?

PBo83 · 31/10/2019 15:34

OK- here’s another question for the people who use porn. Are you completely sure you have never watched an exploited woman?

Except that's not another question is it? It's the same question that has been asked before. There can only realistically be one answer..."No". Obviously this plays right into the suggestion that I, and other users of porn, am a 'rape sympathiser' but that simply isn't the case.

The only way you can 100% guarantee porn is 'ethical' is to make it yourself (ethical and fun!). In the same way you can only guarantee your clothes don't use exploited labour is to make them yourself or walk around naked.

What you CAN do is use sources (of either) which are known for the ethical treatment of their staff (or, in the case of porn, performers).

ReanimatedSGB · 31/10/2019 15:44

"Which other jobs commodify an entire class in the way sex work does? Which other jobs give one class the sense of complete entitlement to use the other in the way sex work does? Which other jobs are resulting in young girls being physically damaged in their early sexual experiences the way sex work does?"
This is opinion, not fact.

In the minds of some entitled people any service industry job commodifies the person who does it. People, particularly wealthy ones who grew up in privileged circumstances, consider the person who cleans their house, serves their food or washes their car is some sort of lesser creature who could never cross the divide and socialise with them, for instance. This kind of entitlement may well be part of the mindset of some people who watch porn or pay for more direct sexual service, but it isn't what every single person who enjoys commercial sex or sex-related entertainment feels about performers. To some people, a favourite porn performer is like a favourite musician or non-porn actor or other celebrity.

BertrandRussell · 31/10/2019 15:45

Right, so I think it’s it the unbridgeable gap. I simply cannot understand why anyone would use porn if they weren’t 100% sure that the participants were enthusiastically, freely consenting. I do everything I can to make sure that the clothes I wear and the food I eat does not involve exploitation, but I realise that I cannot be 100% sure, and that other people do not have the resources to make the choices I do. But we all need to wear clothes and eat. I do not need to get my nails done or my car washed, so I don’t use nail bars or car washes. Some people seem to be putting porn into the clothes and food category. You do your absolute best but you have to make do with as close to 100% certainty as possible or you freeze or starve. I think porn is in the car wash or nail bar category- it’s not something you need, and it’s easy not to use. A completely painless way to ensure you’re not exploiting your fellow human beings.

ReanimatedSGB · 31/10/2019 15:46

As PP said, I choose to watch porn that I know the provenance of - trusted providers with a good reputation etc.
(I also buy a lot of clothes and consumer goods secondhand, on the grounds that they might have been produced in unethical conditions, but those profiting from the exploitation involved in producing my clothes are not getting money from me...)

OnlyTheTitOfTheIceberg · 31/10/2019 15:49

Right, so I think it’s it the unbridgeable gap. I simply cannot understand why anyone would use porn if they weren’t 100% sure that the participants were enthusiastically, freely consenting. I do everything I can to make sure that the clothes I wear and the food I eat does not involve exploitation, but I realise that I cannot be 100% sure, and that other people do not have the resources to make the choices I do. But we all need to wear clothes and eat. I do not need to get my nails done or my car washed, so I don’t use nail bars or car washes. Some people seem to be putting porn into the clothes and food category. You do your absolute best but you have to make do with as close to 100% certainty as possible or you freeze or starve. I think porn is in the car wash or nail bar category- it’s not something you need, and it’s easy not to use. A completely painless way to ensure you’re not exploiting your fellow human beings.

This, 100%.

ReanimatedSGB · 31/10/2019 15:49

OK Bertrand, what about the people who have chosen to provide manicures or wash cars for a living. Are you going to argue that every single one of them is a victim of trafficking? If not, is destroying the industry on which they depend (and work in willingly for what they consider reasonable wages) a fair price to pay in order to stop trafficking, on the grounds that no one needs their car washed or their nails decorated?

PBo83 · 31/10/2019 15:54

OK Bertrand, what about the people who have chosen to provide manicures or wash cars for a living. Are you going to argue that every single one of them is a victim of trafficking? If not, is destroying the industry on which they depend (and work in willingly for what they consider reasonable wages) a fair price to pay in order to stop trafficking, on the grounds that no one needs their car washed or their nails decorated?

Exactly, stopping trafficking and exploitation should be a primary concern, not simply boycotting/eliminating industries where people may be exploited.

BertrandRussell · 31/10/2019 16:02

Sorry, ReanimatedSGB. I don’t particularly enjoy dealing with people with hidden agendas.

Autumnfields · 31/10/2019 16:10

So, to clarify, anyone who consumes any form of pornography is complicit in exploitation, human trafficking and rape? (I'm genuinely just confirming this is what you mean).

I didn’t post but I do believe the above. I used to think some porn was fine. Fun. Silly. Etc. Now I realize there is almost no clear boundary on ‘good’ or ‘bad’. The more I know and the more I learn, it is an insidious horrible industry from all angles. And it is the wider normalizing of porn that feeds the monster, not the smaller very dark side. We have to wise up.