To ask supporters of porn to read this

[SmileEachDay]

meaww.com/missing-teen-adult-video-pornhub-modelhub-snapchat-periscope

A missing 15 year old girl was spotted in videos hosted by Pornhub. Those of you who are “ok” with porn - are you “ok” with this?

The sentence the man involved in making the videos is for another thread, but is shocking.

Why? Why should those jobs only be considered in those circumstance?

What? You're arguing with your own point.

Surely the point you were making is "should people on benefits HAVE to apply for 'sex' jobs in order to keep their benefits?'. The answer is No. They may have to been seen to be applying for jobs but, unless these are the only jobs left available, then it's irrelevant.

I guess if they WERE applying for these jobs then that may well fill the brief of 'applying for jobs' (assuming that they were with legitimate companies).

PBo83

I’m not arguing against my own point. I’m trying - unsuccessfully it seems - to get someone to explain why sex work is/is not the same as any job.

Regardless of whether it is just a job people are still entitled to a moral objection to it

There are plenty of jobs i would refuse on moral grounds, they might be just a job to someone else

I’d say there’s no universal answer to this question. Do I believe the production of porn the way I experienced it should be viewed as employment with legal protections, pensions, etc. then yes. It is a job.

What I do NOT believe is that it is unskilled work where the only qualifications are willing participation and a vagina. I don’t think anyone can do it even if the barriers to entry are ones other people believe are low.

Porn sickness is now an indelible part of our culture. This goes beyond just liking to see people naked. We aren’t talking about a few French postcards.

What we’re talking about is the increased violence and misogyny around porn. I’ve time it has become more and more extreme and is having a very negative effect on teens especially.

Two consensual adults filming what they do because they are confident in their bodies and boundaries is fine. Women and men trafficked into degrading violence and bodily harm is not.

Try watching ‘After Porn Ends’. The number of adult film stars who later take their own lives is shocking.

I’m not arguing against my own point. I’m trying - unsuccessfully it seems - to get someone to explain why sex work is/is not the same as any job

Surely no job is the same as any other job? Every job uses your brain/body in some way and it is upto the person concerned to determine whether they are happy to accept the job on that basis.

Jane

Do you believe it should be on the list of jobs people should be required to do, in my previously described benefits situation?

The majority of porn user's do not care, that's the obvious answer. I read a comment recently on redddit , the love after porn sub. It referenced the growing no fap movement as follows
Despite the damage to relationships and people in the industry these men only wake up when their dicks don't work. She's referring to the growing number of men with ED.
People are in general selfish, I don't know what the answer is, but I do think it's just to easy to access. It's not just damaging to kids it's seems lots of adults are getting problems.

Nobody should be forced to take on a job that horrifies them or goes against their personal moral viewpoint because they would starve otherwise. Would you be OK with vegans being compelled to work in meat production - or those with well-researched and informed concerns about gambling addiction to work in a bookies?
(ISTR there being a fuss a while back about the Ann Summers chain advertising for staff in job centres because, bwaaa, SEX INDUSTRY - despite the fact that Ann Summers staff are not expected to engage in sexual activity with customers and retail work is retail work whether you are selling vibrators or breakfast cereal).

Again, the idea that the DWP can force people to take on work that they profoundly object to is a serious problem but not one you can lay at the door of the sex industry.

There are plenty of people who would much rather do sex work than care work, because they would find that more physically distasteful; who would rather do sex work than stack shelves in a supermarket because they object to the business practices of the supermarket chains - but I expect the anti-porn posters will dismiss it as completely implausible that a sex worker might have informed political opinions...

Again, the idea that the DWP can force people to take on work that they profoundly object to is a serious problem but not one you can lay at the door of the sex industry

I’m not. It’s a hypothetical- I want to know if sex work is work. If it’s different, why? I want to know how SWIW relates to consent and bodily autonomy,

As to the 'no fap' movement, that's a classic example of anti-porn activism which is really about misogyny and the opposite of something that will safeguard women and children. It's most popular among incels, MRAs and the sort of wankers who follow Jordan Lobsterknob Petersen.

(I mean, if your opposition to porn is on feminist grounds, you're entitled to your opinion but do you really want to use that 'community' as back up?)

The difference with sex work/porn is that it teaches society that women in particular, and to a much lesser but still real extent young men, are commodities that men have the right to wank over/into. No other job does that. It teaches us that men believe they have a legitimate right to expect their erection to be maintained and serviced, even if the person doing that servicing has not given enthusiastic consent. No other job does that. It teaches us that men in particular consider their right to achieve orgasm to be more important than another person's right to consent, and that they - and the women who use or support the use of porn - will make no effort to ensure that the body or bodies they are using to achieve orgasm have not been trafficked, raped or coerced even when they are alerted to the fact that trafficking, rape and coercion are common elements of the sex industry.

That is why I don't support porn, and why I don't support the choosychoice lib fem narrative of "empowered women engaging in sex work, bodily autonomy woo!" because while some individual women no doubt do feel empowered by sex work, they are perpetuating and normalising the harm done by porn and prostitution to women and girls as a class. Children are accessing porn and seeing extreme sex acts on the front page of the likes of Pornhub years before they actually get to have sex, by which time they consider anal, forceful deepthroating to the point of gagging and hands round the neck to be "normal". Boys grow up believing they have the right to do any and all and more of these things to women and if they can't find a consenting woman then they can just rent one for an hour. It erodes the boundaries women and girls should feel able to set about their bodies and about their own self-discovery of themselves as sexual beings.

It will never be banned, I'm not that naive. But I would like to see us as a society become less accepting of it, more enlightened to the harms it does, more respectful of women in general and more understanding of and willing to change the social and economic circumstances that make many women "choose" sex work.

I use the love after porn sub for support.

Nobody's using the 'nofap' movement as back up for their own position.

Sandy used it to illustrate how porn users don't give a shit until their dicks stop working.

What's your relationship to the sex industry SGB? I know a few of us have asked but maybe I missed your response.

The DWP expects you to take what ever job is available, one of my kids works in the meat industry. Not by choice through necessity.

I’m not. It’s a hypothetical- I want to know if sex work is work. If it’s different, why? I want to know how SWIW relates to consent and bodily autonomy

It's different purely because some people have a strong objection to it and there are risks involved. I don't know what the DWP's remit is, but they don't seem to make people work as high-rise window cleaners or in slaughterhouses, despite the fact that these are legitimate jobs that people do.

OK, 'work' involves using your body, your brain or both to undertake tasks in exchange for money - ideally by way of an agreed contract that is fair to all participants ie a fair wage for a fair job of work.

How does that not apply to sex work?

'But but but - it's dangerous...' Many jobs are dangerous. Any job which involves interaction with the general public carries some degree of risk, which a good employer mitigates but cannot entirely remove.

'But it's distatesful/immoral' - Many jobs involve distasteful elements such as dealing with waste or being exposed to smells, sights and sounds that may be distressing. Different people have different opinions as to which jobs or industries are immoral, but the fact that someone finds debt collection or the selling of alcohol immoral doesn't stop those things being work.

But it's bad for other women if some women do it.
Still doesn't stop it being work.

Anyone want to try and put up another argument that isn't just 'Waah, sex is simultaneously sacred and disgusting'?

Which other jobs commodify an entire class in the way sex work does? Which other jobs give one class the sense of complete entitlement to use the other in the way sex work does? Which other jobs are resulting in young girls being physically damaged in their early sexual experiences the way sex work does?

Specifics please, Reanimated.

Oh, did I miss the bit where we've got rid of superstitious misogyny, so women and girls are no longer growing up believing that their bodies are sinful and must be covered; that men are inherently superior to them and must be obeyed; that reproduction is under the control of men rather than women, and that to object to any of these views is bigotry?

The 'messages' put forward in porn are rather more diverse and open to interpretation than the insistence on women's second-class status which is the core of all religions.

Are you able to answer the questions? You're very good at the snidey misogynistic 'any woman who doesn't like porn is a prude' bullshit, yes well done, gold star for that. I'm more interested in seeing if you can answer the questions, including the one several people have asked and you seem to have repeatedly missed, about your connection to the porn industry?

So women who object to porn are doing it for religious reason? Could you be any more patronising? Well, yes you could, actually. I remember when you used to refer to the other parents at your kids school as “mundanes”

Why don't jobless men just suck other men off or take it up the bum for cash? Its just a job like any other job and we all have to do things we don't like.
I'm sure there'd be a thriving market for trafficked adult men, if they weren't all such religious brainwashed bigots.

Why don't jobless men just suck other men off or take it up the bum for cash? Its just a job like any other job and we all have to do things we don't like.

I think some men do and that's their choice (and I know both men and women who enjoy gay porn).

I'm sure there'd be a thriving market for trafficked adult men, if they weren't all such religious brainwashed bigots.

Sadly there is a thriving market for trafficked men (although fewer end up in the sex industry). I don't believe anyone supports the trafficking or exploitation of people regardless of sex.

So people on here who support porn.

Yes or no question.

Are you willing to watch mainstream porn in the full knowledge that the woman you are watching may have been trafficked, abused or be there without full consent. Or that she may in fact be a child (as per the OP)? Yes or no?

So people on here who support porn

Very strange label to try and put on people.

I don't 'support' porn but I do consume it and don't have any moral objections to the principle of pornography.

Attempting to make it a black & white issue doesn't work. I, like (I hope) everybody on here, object to the trafficking and exploitation of people as in the original story.

I also believe regulation of the industry should be improved, I believe that some porn is reprehensible and potentially harmful to those involved and those viewing and I believe that access to porn is far too easy for young people and is a concern.

I don't think porn is 'bad' though and, if it were to go to a vote, I would vote against an outright ban on porn.

But, if you want a black and white answer (so you can label me an 'apologist') then...Yes. That said, my taste in porn is very much 'mainstream' and I prefer the quality, well-produced type from the big studios where (from my understanding) regulation, pay and the welfare of performers is fairly high.