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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think we will never know the true numbers

313 replies

NovoJester · 26/10/2019 10:16

... of migrants who have died whilst crossing the channel. I’ve just seen Ahmad Al Rashid’s (trustee of Refugees at Home) Interview and his Facebook post on his own journey where people died alongside him in a refrigerated lorry. A few others have shared their stories. I firmly believe not enough has been done to reduce these deaths and wonder if they have been grossly under counted and reported to authorities now.

Those poor people and their poor families.

OP posts:
Mamamia456 · 26/10/2019 12:47

Janus - I understand, that makes more sense. These traffickers really do need to be stopped.

HauntedmessFrogbeaver · 26/10/2019 12:48

Do hope @littlepaddypaws you've told all your family and friends not to have any children as we're so full up.

Hmmm, probably not.

ImGoingToBangYourHeadsTogether · 26/10/2019 12:48

We're extraordinary privileged in the UK. No, you're extraordinarily priviliged in the UK. I like the way people justify bringing more people over by saying our own poor people are better off than poor people there. It reads rather like rich British people telling poor British people that they should have less so that men - it is predominantly men - who are well-off in their own countries can have more. Poor British people own nothing in the UK any more already. Again, look at the reality of life as a private tenant scratching a living and barely covering the bills.

It would be much more believable if all these rich people said that they will give their share of British food to the incomers, they will give their own houses and jobs away, give up their foreign holidays and fancy cars, and take them away from their own children to give to well-off people in other countries. Not going to happen though is it? They won't do that even to stop climate change.

RJnomore1 · 26/10/2019 12:49

You forget the People taking advantage of them, promising them a great life here while they pocket their cash abd probably sell then into prostitution or modern slavery when they arrive.

We are one of the richest countries in the world. We can afford what we want. We CHOOSE what to spend on and when not to act.

Hingeandbracket · 26/10/2019 12:49

@NinetySixer
My last career was In recruitment. I recruited in highly understaffed industries.
You mean highly underpaid industries. We don't have a shortage of skills or workers we have lack of jobs paying ages we can live on.

andyoldlabour · 26/10/2019 12:51

"Even the poorest person on here, who struggles to pay their bills and put food on the table is 1000 times better off than these people."

You think the poorest people in Britain have £30,000 to gamble with?

Kolo · 26/10/2019 12:51

we are a rich country. We could easily afford to care for these people

That's why there are so many threads about being on the breadline and umpteen working families are living off of handouts and foodbanks then, hmm?

We are a rich country. Just we don't share the money about very fairly meaning millions of people live in poverty. Don't confuse unequal distribution of wealth with being a poor country.

HarveySchlumpfenburger · 26/10/2019 12:52

These people have to pay about £30,000 to get here but they don’t have the money so the family agrees to repay the scum that organise the crossings. The people arrive and are mostly forced into the sex industry or slave wages and the family at home have to spend many years paying for their crossing. These people don’t just come in and get nice houses and take up the school places, it is much more dark than that.

This x 1000. Those that can pay the £30,000 up front are almost certainly the exception. The rest pretty much end up being ‘owned’ until they’ve paid it off. Which is quite likely to be never.

mumwon · 26/10/2019 12:53

the country with the biggest amount of Asylum seekers is Turkey -isn't it? & Switzerland. Germany & Norway have far larger migrants (either by number or by proportion of per head of general population) Interesting that people forget that we colonise many of the countries & used their workers, wealth & raw materials to founder our wealth & industry in our country? Something many people forget. Also during the 1950's we asked people to come over & work here whilst our younger generation migrated to wealthier (not always)more promising countries. Some of the multicultural population you see in many of our cities have been in this country for several generations now - rather like the Irish or Polish people - who being white (!) are less noticeable (to some) like many of our UK migrants to other countries - men came out got work & bring their wives & children - & please don't quote either Migrant Watch or Daily Mail because their research is - how shall I put it? - non specific as too what constitutes a Migrant ie how many generations of living here makes you a national. Strangely in Aus during the 1960's there use to be complaints about pommy's sticking together & not integrating- & I bet there are Spanish people who say the same about our expats over there.

NinetySixer · 26/10/2019 12:55

@Hingeandbracket

No, in a lot of industries we have a huge lack of qualified people to fill jobs.

We had clients who would pay well over going rate for mid to senior level roles and struggling to fill them. Candidates would come on get 10-15 interview offers interview for 5 and take one job.

Hingeandbracket · 26/10/2019 12:56

We are a rich country. Just we don't share the money about very fairly meaning millions of people live in poverty. Don't confuse unequal distribution of wealth with being a poor country
^This - also we choose to turn a blind eye to a lot of illegal activity by not paying enough tax to fund enforcement

TotinEggs · 26/10/2019 12:56

Why are so many people pro freedom of movement within the EU but so vehemently against migrants?
Genuine question.

EssentialHummus · 26/10/2019 12:56

have to try to find it but it explained the many reasons why, including having family or friends here, knowing some English. choosing a country they feel is less hostile to immigrants, less hostile to their particular ethnic group etc.

I’d agree with this. And the black market for jobs in the UK is enormous - cheap car wash places and nail bars operating on the high street even though simple economics suggest that something must be wrong with their setup.

The UK relies heavily on willing foreign labour in a range of industries, however much the current rhetoric focuses on “taking back control”.

Dongdingdong · 26/10/2019 12:57

To those saying they can’t see why anyone would want to leave a country like Vietnam in search of a better life - Google slum houses in Ho Chi Minh City. Westerners do go on holiday to Vietnam but I’m sure most of them never encounter the poverty stricken parts.

andyoldlabour · 26/10/2019 13:02

"I think we have plenty of room. We should do more."

Out of nearly 200 countries, England has the 17th highest population dnsity at 415 people per sqKM. The UK is at 32 on that list.
If you think we have plenty of room, you probably live in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland.

Ponoka7 · 26/10/2019 13:03

It's people like @LionelRitchieStoleMyNotebook and
@CherryPavlova, who have no understanding of poverty and deprivation in the UK and think that by just 'trying harder' there is no limit to what you can achieve. People are held back by their environment and lack of opportunity. The cycle of poverty is real and hasn't been helped by Austerity.

I live in Liverpool, yes the whole xity just isn't trying hard enough, or limiting their family size etc etc.

People who are UK born are fleeing their city to try for a better life and ending up homeless. A % of them will die. There's many people who just discount their deaths as their own fault, but wouldn't say the same for economic migrants.

I have Nigerian and other African female friends. All of them have been sexually assaulted as a child. Nothing was done to the perpetuators. That, like the whole rape/sexual exploitation/domestic killings etc (against women) is considered a Cultural problem, but not one important enough to try to stop and not one that the men are willing to give up, even if it means their female relatives are victims.

They fear uncontrolled immigration, because they feel they will be in danger once again. There's nothing wrong with wanting to keep our safety standards.

Educate yourself on how some countries still deal with disabilities, how witchcraft and magic still control their beliefs. Stop with the naivety that all cultures are equal in their treatment of Women and children etc.

There's a real problem in some parts of the country in earning enough to live on. We should address that, not ship people in. We could ship all the eldery from down south Up North, i suppose. Our care homes are staffed by the local population, desperate for work. But that wouldn't be popular.

I feel for anyone who lives in these places. I particularly don't blame any woman from trying to escape and they shouldn't die doing so. There isn't easy answers especially considering who are world leaders are at present. People are collateral damage to them.

The government was warned about this port being an easy destination. They ignored it.

Re the Morecombe cockle pickers, that used to be a cash in hand job for people on benefits. They were reported and reported, then the individual benefit claiments prosecuted, until no one would do it. It was then left open for people traffickers. I think that was allowed to happen. Only the DWP was interested and no other departments. They could have shut down the operation on day one, but didn't.

So we certainly aren't doing enough to prevent illegal working, outside of being obsessed with benefit claimants.

Hingeandbracket · 26/10/2019 13:03

And the black market for jobs in the UK is enormous - cheap car wash places and nail bars operating on the high street even though simple economics suggest that something must be wrong with their setup.
^ This - we can all see it so clearly but no-one seems to want to address it.
The UK relies heavily on willing foreign labour in a range of industries, however much the current rhetoric focuses on “taking back control”.
Did it occur to you that maybe people aren't too happy with the current situation?

ZenNudist · 26/10/2019 13:03

Such saddening replies on this thread. Heartening that some people appreciate the need to care for fellow humans.

The Vietnamese girl was coming to Britain to work as her area (the one she mentioned in her text message so they could bury her at home) was blighted by one of the worst environmental disasters seen in Vietnam in recent years.

saraclara · 26/10/2019 13:04

If it was France having a civil war, all the Brits saying that asylum seekers should go to their nearest country, would be changing their tune pretty quickly.

Kolo · 26/10/2019 13:05

...what I personally want is that my children grow up with an awareness of the wider world and an understanding of what might make people leave their homes and families to enter the UK illegally. I want them to understand their privilege in the wider world and be compassionate, welcoming adults who value difference with a desire to understand different cultures, religions, customs and traditions. I want them so try speaking different languages, eat different food, and have enduring friendships with everyone and anyone. I also want them to understand that what we have in this country - the long history of democracy, a healthy economy and welfare state - is something that could potentially disappear overnight and that it might be them some day seeking refuge in another country.

Yes!! This is how I was brought up and how I want my children to experience the world. My life has been completely enhanced by having relationships with people from different backgrounds/cultures/countries.

AllTheGoodUNsTaken · 26/10/2019 13:05

People are talking like they paid the cash already to get here. We don't know that.

It's possible people are told they will be taken to the UK (or other countries), be housed and given work and will pay off their debts with their massive earnings. Only for the reality of human trafficking and modern slavery to be different. And of course, they can't get away from the situation they have been trafficked into. If they get away, the gangs back home go after their families for the money. People who have been trafficked don't claim asylum because the gangs don't want officials knowing they are here.

People smugglers, as far as I know, expect a fee upfront, get people here and let them let them free to take their chances/make themselves known to authorities.

Shinesweetfreedom · 26/10/2019 13:07

Trafficker-Yes we can safely get you to England,there you can earn so much money and you will be able to send it back to your family
Victim-Will it be alright
Trafficker-Oh yes you will earn plenty of money,but to get you safety into the country you will need to pay us £30 000 pounds.
Victim-But I don’t have that
Trafficker-It’s ok you just need to borrow as much as you can from family and friends,with all the money you will earn in England you will be able to pay it back very soon.Give us as much as you can now and the rest you can pay us out of your wages when you get to England
Victim-I want to do this to help my family
Six months later,if the victim does not die in the process of reaching England,they will be working as slave labour or in the sex trade.
Victim-But you said I would earn good money if I came here,but you have not given me any money.
Trafficker-Ah that’s because we have to take money off you to pay for your accommodation,you didn’t think you would be able to live in this house with 15 others and not pay any rent did you.And you owe so much money as you didn’t pay the full £30 000 up front.Plus there is all the paperwork we have to complete that costs money.You need to keep working and work harder,as you would not want anything to happen to your family back home would you,so don’t even thing of trying to leave or the police will arrest you and throw you in jail and you will be in so much trouble and all your family back home will be killed.

Times this by however many unknown numbers this is happening to in this country right now

JassyRadlett · 26/10/2019 13:11

these people pass through so many countries to get here, why not stay in one of those

Many/most of them do. It doesn’t take either a great deal of imagination or a great deal of research to determine some of the factors that draw some to the UK over other places. But don’t buy into the narrative that none stop in France, Germany or other places. It simply isn’t supported by evidence.

ImGoingToBangYourHeadsTogether · 26/10/2019 13:15

Well said Ponoka. Yes I agree ZenNudist, it is saddening. How much wilful ignorance there is in Britain of how the other half of the population live, how much hypocrisy from the middle class rich and how little care they have for their fellow humans right here.

We are a rich country. Just we don't share the money about very fairly meaning millions of people live in poverty. Don't confuse unequal distribution of wealth with being a poor country

Sort it out then. Stop middle class people from buying up multiple entry-level houses to exploit tenants for rent. Stop the huge disparity in income and wages that has nothing to do with amount of work or skills involved and everything to do with social status. You can also stop the huge cars and flights abroad that are bringing climate change upon us and directly causing issues leading to migration in other parts of the world.

Usersk03lar · 26/10/2019 13:15

Frankly shocked that the racist post I reported has been allowed to stand while simila others have been deleted.