To think we will never know the true numbers

[NovoJester]

... of migrants who have died whilst crossing the channel. I’ve just seen Ahmad Al Rashid’s (trustee of Refugees at Home) Interview and his Facebook post on his own journey where people died alongside him in a refrigerated lorry. A few others have shared their stories. I firmly believe not enough has been done to reduce these deaths and wonder if they have been grossly under counted and reported to authorities now.

Those poor people and their poor families.

This - we can all see it so clearly but no-one seems to want to address it.
“The UK relies heavily on willing foreign labour in a range of industries, however much the current rhetoric focuses on “taking back control”.
Did it occur to you that maybe people aren't too happy with the current situation?

Clearly people aren’t happy with this side of the current situation. But they are happy to eat cheap(ish) fruit and veg picked by Romanian seasonal workers, pay below the going rate for new nails, buy clothes without considering their manufacturing process, rail against the cost of care homes without thinking too deeply about who staffs them, use a cleaning agency without verifying the workers’ details, pay £5 for their car to be washed inside out. But this is the other side of the same coin, not a separate thing. Even if we “take back control” (ha!) and Brexit happens, we will need the labour - or to incentivise the local poor to take jobs like this - or be prepared for increased prices etc.

Speaking as a wealthier economic migrant - I got a scholarship to study in London and stuck around, built a career here etc - the UK’s approach to border control for at least the last decade has been shambolic. No exit checks. Erratic record-keeping. Changes in visas and systems frequently enough that people just fell off the radar. Other countries manage - here it just isn’t a priority.

@Ponoka7 , did you read the post that @CherryPavlova and @LionelRitchieStoleMyNotebook we're responding to? The post blaming immigrants for lack of housing, healthcare, schools, water etc? While I totally agree with your post about the root causes of deprivation, I suspect your barking up the wrong tree with those posters. I read their posts as pointing out that deprivation, lack of public services etc is not caused by immigrants.

You're **

flamed time, itis tragic but these people pass through so many countries to get here, why not stay in one of those ?

I agree with you. Not necessarily from our pov as I didn't do anything to get into the UK other than happen to be born here, so I'm not about to start hurling abuse at people who also want to make it their home.

I just wonder why, from their pov, when there's such a high risk of not surviving the journey, why they would take that risk on their way through Italy, France, Spain, Germany, The Netherlands etc - all very nice, safe, prosperous countries which many Brits have actively chosen to move to. Yes, we have far greater diversity, a lack of ID cards and speak the 'World' language, but we're hardly the only safe, nice country in western Europe to make a new life in.

Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me that, if your family were starving, you might regretfully find yourself shoplifting food from your local Aldi in order to survive, but it wouldn't be high on your priority list to hitchhike several hundred miles with your children in a desperate attempt to get to the Waitrose with the most exquisite deli of all.

Actually germany have taken a lot of refugees. But the uk is seen as an excepting country. And some of the refugees may be from old empire countries so there is a link there.

But these people were from Vietnam. Surely France would have made much more sense?

at the ignorant, arrogant, dumb and inhumane tone of some posters on this thread. Really, really shocked.

Especially the ridiculous notion that everyone and their cousins wants to come to the UK. Lol. No, they don't, most EU countries have a far better and more generous welfare system, the UK is one of the stingiest countries sin rageprsd to benefits. Have you seen how many refuges live in Greece, Turkey, and most other EU countries?

Also, the people who died in the truck were trafficked, many of them mislead to believe this was a genuine way to enter the UK, some paid 30k for the journey to hell.

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll, often they don't get a choice in it. It depends where the trafficking gangs operate, if they are slavery victims.

People who can afford to pay people traffickers upfront often choose the country they end up in, so can choose to be taken to Germany, Belgium, France etc.

We do need to distinguish between asylum seekers and economic migrants. These poor people were economic migrants as Vietnam is not an unsafe country. I think part of the issue is that with high barriers to legal entry, those who come from developing countries, must find alternate routes into the UK either by being smuggled, seeking asylum or by overstaying visas. Which leads to deaths and exploitation.

So, if the UK is serious about preventing such future tragedies, it must introduce tougher border controls and ID cards. If there is any chance of getting in and being allowed to stay, desperate people will take it. I do think that at present, the UK has plenty of deprivation to tackle already and once those issues are in hand, it can look to offering low skilled visas etc.

Also, illegal immigrants CAN NOT claim benefits, housing or NHS care (without lying about their status). They are not known to be here by any authority.
Refugees seeking asylum is a different thing, and most are denied.

But these people were from Vietnam. Surely France would have made much more sense?

Sadly we can't ask them now, because they are dead. Your post is oozing with warmth and empathy RosieLynn.

these people pass through so many countries to get here, why not stay in one of those

Many/most of them do. It doesn’t take either a great deal of imagination or a great deal of research to determine some of the factors that draw some to the UK over other places. But don’t buy into the narrative that none stop in France, Germany or other places. It simply isn’t supported by evidence.

I don't doubt you, but obviously plenty of people do decide to take the added risks to come all the way to the UK. I'm not saying they shouldn't want to and I don't buy into the narrative that "it's the immigrants to blame for everything bad" but your use of the phrase 'draws them to the UK' makes it sound like they're in the privileged position of making leisurely plans before booking a flight and arranging accommodation - not rolling around in the back of a refrigerated lorry with many others for an extra 1,000 or 2,000 miles and crossing water rather than stopping much sooner in another, much nearer, very nice country.

Remember this,,every single person entering this country is competing with you,your children and your grand children for housing, healthcare,school, food,water,energy,jobs and indeed space

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll, often they don't get a choice in it. It depends where the trafficking gangs operate, if they are slavery victims.

Very fair point.

But these people were from Vietnam. Surely France would have made much more sense?

There are VERY many Vietnamese in France. But on the whole trafficked people don't know where they're going to end up. They're told 'Europe', and it's down to the traffickers to dump them wherever someone will pay them (the trafficker) most.

in the back of a refrigerated lorry with many others for an extra 1,000 or 2,000 miles and crossing water rather than stopping much sooner in another, much nearer, very nice country.

It's sad to think that if they'd ended their journey in Belgium (I think that was their final stopping point before continuing on to the UK?) they'd still be alive.

How much wilful ignorance there is in Britain of how the other half of the population live, how much hypocrisy from the middle class rich and how little care they have for their fellow humans right here.

Is it or have you just assumed that everyone who disagrees with your point of view is middle class, rich and doesn’t understand?

There would be a lot more clarity on this issue if people didn’t constantly pretend that economic migrants deliberately bypassing the legal means of entry was the same thing as seeking asylum.

We can do more to help prevent these kinds of deaths. We can strongly enforce our borders with swift repatriation of illegal economic migration, combined with better and easier means of legally claiming asylum.

If people feel the system is respected, sympathy for genuine refugees will reassert itself.

Sorry don’t know how to highlight a name but shinesweetfreedom’s post sums up the reality for most. Kept in houses, used for labour and the dream they were sold nowhere in sight

For those who genuinely want to be educated on trafficking, and have ten minutes to spare, watch this video. It will make you feel sick though, so ...

www.gla.gov.uk/publications/resources/glaa-videos/glaa-horse-trading/

@CherryPavlova I couldn't agree more

I was also thinking about this op. I agree with you that we will likely never know the true numbers, that sometimes people will sadly die en route and their bodies disposed of without the authorities ever knowing.

What made me think of it was the two Vietnamese who are missing, and no one knowing if they were on that container or not. And if not then on another one. That the authorities are unaware of.

It's beyond awful

Kolo - Of course people in this country are competing with other people whether from other countries or British born. When someone applies for a job they are competing against the other applicants or paying for tutors to help a child pass the 11+ to get into a grammar school or outbidding someone for a house.

The most important issue on this site is knowing the difference in application between your and you're. Never mind that the scum of the earth trafficked poor people have died a hideous death.
Someone could also be talking about a sensitive issue about a family member and would get pulled up about this as well. Its just silly.

There are VERY many Vietnamese in France. But on the whole trafficked people don't know where they're going to end up. They're told 'Europe', and it's down to the traffickers to dump them wherever someone will pay them (the trafficker) most

So a trafficker will make the effort to transport them over the hardest part of the Western Europe route, involving the natural barrier of the sea, so more than just road, because they just dump them anywhere ? That makes no practical sense.