To think we will never know the true numbers

[NovoJester]

... of migrants who have died whilst crossing the channel. I’ve just seen Ahmad Al Rashid’s (trustee of Refugees at Home) Interview and his Facebook post on his own journey where people died alongside him in a refrigerated lorry. A few others have shared their stories. I firmly believe not enough has been done to reduce these deaths and wonder if they have been grossly under counted and reported to authorities now.

Those poor people and their poor families.

FWIW, I'm not a proponent of reparations. The history of the world is full of wrongdoings, and there comes a point where you have to put things to bed and move forward. The alternative is a world of endless conflict.

But the fact that English is the world's lingua franca does stem from imperial times, and has inevitable consequences.

That's a really horrible way to look at humanity. What about all the migrants who create jobs? Who have the better educations because they have applied themselves? Who start their own schools? Have ties to energy companies in their own countries where we source a lot of our energy needs?

I dont think its horrible., I think its real world. If you want to go live in the USA without a family sponsor well you have to have particular skillsets that are in demand or have lots of money to invest or if your really lucky,win the diversity lottery and get a green card. WE in this country do not need any more free loaders . Of course those with desirable skills can apply for a work visa to come here and/or be supported by an employer to come here. Of course if those people come from poor countries, well they are just acting in selfish self interest. Perhaps they should stay there and help their own people and their own country?

Want to go live in Australia? go check out their immigration website and see what they require.
www.australia.gov.au/information-and-services/immigration-and-visas/migration-to-australia

I dont see any section there where it says, just turn up in the back of a lorry and be given a right to remain, housing,food,clothing,training and a job? No,they detain them,process them and deport them mostly and yet look at the land mass of Australia. One thing they are not short of is space/

Why are they migrating? Well it boils down to tribalism. Look at Africa. True there are many areas of Africa that are successful but large areas are riven with corruption,drought,tribalism and people hacking eachother to death with machetes for various reasons.

Many big companies will not invest in parts of Africa as it is too unstable.

Bottom line, the UK is one of the most densely crowded countries in the world. Its full up. Most people dont want illegal entrants coming here. We should only take the best,those who hav e something to offer. The rest? look after them,process them and deport them by force if necessary.

Bottom line, the UK is one of the most densely crowded countries in the world. Its full up.

This is just factually inaccurate. We're upper mid-table in terms of density: see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_population_density. However bear in mind that many countries: (Australia, Russia, the Scandinavian states, much of South America and Africa) are almost empty.

Immigrant-bashers come on here with their claims - they steal your jobs; they sponge off our benefits system; we are full up - that can be disproved with a moment's investigation. The problem is that people are much more invested in their own prejudices than actual facts.

And before anyone challenges it, the population density data on Wikipedia is composed mainly of official estimates, UN data and census findings. It won't be perfect but it will be the best data available.

Whilst it’s true countries that have English as an official language are mainly those that suffered colonialism (Rwanda being the possible exception), I think that nowadays, the reason they speak English so well is more related to television. Certainly that’s true for most European and Nordic nations.

What I find a real challenge is people believing they have an unquestionable right to a better life simply because they, or their parents, were born in the U.K.

Many of these same people will, undoubtedly, be planning Christmas celebrations shortly - a feast where the world over the focus is on love, peace and goodwill to all. This feast (not the preceding pagan one) revolves around a very poor, displaced migrant family. A family denied access to accommodation. A family hated by the authorities at the time. Yet, two thousand years on, that birth is still celebrated and enriches the lives of many.
Maybe those that display hatred and injustice towards displaced people need to consider why they are celebrating Christmas? Pure hypocrisy.

The population density stats of course do deserve further scrutiny because people per square kilometer or similar is just a very raw figure. We would have to look at land masses of a comparable size to the uk to get a true picture.

As an example Monaco may seem to be most populous but it is only a very small area,much like the Vatican City.

Population distribution within a land mass is also an important factor. True Australia has lots of room but most of its population is within X miles of the coast.

In The UK of course despite the country being small, most of the population masses are around major Cities and towns. Other control factors are land ownership and house prices. How many people who may be deemed Asylum seekers/economic migrants etc live in Prince Charles idyllic Poundbury village? Probably non/not many as house prices there are astronomical.

No,,they mostly end up rammed into inner city areas,previously or currently largely occupied by previous immigrant groups or the white working class. The rot sets in as done white flight. Currently in Oldham Greater Manchester we have a situation where Romanians and Eastern blockers have pitched battles with the predominant Pakistanis. Meanwhile if we go back far enough, Those same areas were white working class, the Asians came to live there,expanded their domain and drove the whites out. I well remember a work colleague of mine desperately selling his house to get out as he feared it would be massively devalued.

These are the REAL truths and issues that are going on in British society and we must recognises them no matter how unpalatable some my find them.

Immigrant-bashers come on here with their claims - they steal your jobs;

Well people within the EU have a right to travel and work within the EU. It is a curious thing but whenever i interface with the hospitality industry, its almost a given now that i will be talking with an Eastern block person. If i go to the lake district, most of the staff in hotels are Eastern block. How did that happen? Those jobs were once done by locals. Have they all resigned en masse or are they now all trainee doctors? Did they all surrender their jobs preferring to lounge in their beds on their x boxes?

arnold if your point is worth making then it’s worth making without inflammatory and divisive language like “The rot sets in”, “white flight”, “pitched battles” (I’ve just googled pakistani romanian Oldham and nothing’s turned up), “expanded their domain”, “drove the whites out”. Terrible. It’s the language of unthinking xenophobia. There is a cogent argument to be made about who settles here and on what terms, but you’re not making it.

In The UK of course despite the country being small, most of the population masses are around major Cities and towns

No shit. It's almost as if a city or a town is a place where lots of people live.

There is a kernel of a point that some areas of the country are more crowded than others. For example the south east is overcrowded (though Kent, where I live, is wierdly empty) whereas other areas of the country are in population decline. I think, particularly, the Labour govt. of the 90s and 00s could've done more to ensure that immigration was better managed (both in terms of distribution and government spending). But this isn't an argument against immigration as such.

Currently in Oldham Greater Manchester we have a situation where Romanians and Eastern blockers have pitched battles with the predominant Pakistanis.

Clearly you'd love this to be happening but it is a gross exaggeration of reality. My other half's family are in Radcliffe and Bolton and they wouldn't recognise this. There are tensions between communities in north Manchester but these are part of life and if 'pitched battles' were occurring that would be a regular feature on the news.

It is a curious thing but whenever i interface with the hospitality industry, its almost a given now that i will be talking with an Eastern block person. If i go to the lake district, most of the staff in hotels are Eastern block. How did that happen? Those jobs were once done by locals.

Here are some employment statistics going back to the 70's www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/timeseries/lf24/lms (it's not my favourite stat because it's susceptible to governmental doctoring, but that's been the case as long as it has existed). There is no compelling evidence of foreigners coming in and putting locals on the scrap heap.

The reality is that people come in from elsewhere in the world, take jobs, earn money and spend it. Every Polish cleaner or Latvian barman will spend money on food, transport, leisure etc etc. That in turn creates employment for others. They don't steal jobs, they help grow the economy (and, at the moment, help plug the massive hole in the state pension system).

This really is just common sense, you know? Again, you don't need to say anything sophisticated at all to punch holes in the immigrant haters' stock arguments.

thedancingbear

Kent has a population density of 490 pop/km which would put it in 14th place on the World map if it was a country. Bear in mind that Kent has large areas of green belt, farming land and protected parks. It takes me on average around 5 weeks to see a GP. The pop density of Medway in 1,400 pop/km.

As for reparations, should we claim them from Italy with regard to the Romans, or France for what the Normans did. Poland are trying to claim reparations from Germany as we speak, a bit cheeky since Poland gets more from the EU than any other country.

With regard to employment, suppression of wages etc., you seem to have no idea of economics, supply and demand and the never ending availability of cheap resources - young, low paid staff, and the subsequent effect on local labour.

Cherry Pavlova - But we can't invite everyone in the world that wants to come and live here, or are you suggesting that we should, that we should have an open door policy and anyone who wants to should be allowed in. I am talking about economic migrants not genuine asylum seekers.

Kent has a population density of 490 pop/km which would put it in 14th place on the World map if it was a country.

-and there's still plenty of room. I can drive from where I live near Canterbury to the Thanet towns - around 20 miles - without going thorough or seeing another big settlement. It's mostly farmlands and fields.

It takes me on average around 5 weeks to see a GP.

The pop density of Medway in 1,400 pop/km.

Of course it does. It's a big city.

With regard to employment, suppression of wages etc., you seem to have no idea of economics, supply and demand and the never ending availability of cheap resources - young, low paid staff, and the subsequent effect on local labour.

This is a complicated issue and I've no appetite for writing an economics essay here. I'd always understood that immigration usually had a slight positive effect effect on net salary but depressed things at the bottom end (much of which would be immigrant labour anyway). So, a net economic benefit but with downsides that could be addressed through progressive taxation. I'd be in favour of that, and judging by your user name, you would be too?

I work in banking and alongside a lot of Eastern European as well as with people from all over the world. They are not just in the Service industry. It’s a global economy. The Easter Europeans I work with a highly educated and speak and write better English than a lot of the natives which is why they are so employable.

We don’t know why the people who died were coming to the uk. We don’t know if they were asylum seekers or economic migrants. Either way, it’s awful what happened to them.

It’s so sad that people see anyone immigrating as competition for them for jobs or resources. As a pp said, you must not have much to offer if you can’t compete for jobs with newly arrived desperate economic migrants or asylum seekers.

My dds school is ethnically diverse and several children have turned up recently not being able to speak English. It’s in a very affluent area and is one of the best schools in the country. Many elite private schools are the same. Ethnically Diverse schools do not perform on average any worse than others.

It’s also the same with my line of work and many highly skilled areas- they are often very ethnically diverse and attract highly skilled immigrants.

My industry is a global industry. We have highly skilled workers in most places in the globe who move around frequently. The reality of the situation is that immigration restrictions wouldn’t increase jobs in industries such as that. It would just move jobs elsewhere.

People making the case for tolerance post facts and arguments
The case for tolerance? When all you do is sneer and sneer and sneer some more? Fuck off.

It’s so sad that people see anyone immigrating as competition for them for jobs or resources. As a pp said, you must not have much to offer if you can’t compete for jobs with newly arrived desperate economic migrants or asylum seekers.

Well, yes, that’s pretty much the point isn’t it?

If you pop on over to the thread about why NMW can’t cover living expenses, the left is very much ‘not everyone can be a skilled worker’ (and quite right they are).

Here, it’s acceptable to say well you must be pretty shite if you can’t hold your own against unskilled labour.

Deep disconnect.

Mamamia456 As a philosophy, I do believe in an ideal world without borders that welcomes all, but I appreciate that isn’t practical when the world is driven by money. It certainly wouldn’t be a vote winner.

My point is we have stripped assets from other countries (including skilled labour) and a good few people feel it’s our right to have a better life than those left in the world’s poorest or most dangerous countries because our parents were fortunate enough to have U.K. citizenship. We give very little in return.

I'm not even anti-immigration. What I am anti is a few self appointed virtue signallers thinking a bit of Googling and a few wiki links with a liberal dose of sneering makes them emeritus professor of fucking everything at the university of "Facts", as if every issue is simple and only one opinion can ever be based on "facts". It is small-minded and divisive.

Which facts that people have posted do you actually disagree with? Or are you just lashing out because your position doesn't bear scrutiny?

If i go to the lake district, most of the staff in hotels are Eastern block. How did that happen? Those jobs were once done by locals. Have they all resigned en masse or are they now all trainee doctors? Did they all surrender their jobs preferring to lounge in their beds on their x boxes?

The "locals" were forced out by second home/holiday home owners pushing up house prices so that people can't afford to live in the Lake District anymore. Added to that, there are no "decent" jobs so the kids go off to Uni and simply don't come back - they get jobs in London and other big cities were the decent employment opportunities are.

Which facts that people have posted do you actually disagree with?
What a ridiculous question.
Or are you just lashing out because your position doesn't bear scrutiny?
What "position" - the one where I invite people to agree these issue are complex? What do you think my "position" is, other than that?

My point is we have stripped assets from other countries (including skilled labour)

How far back do you want to go? The Romans and Vikings raped and plundered Britain - should we be demanding reparations from them? What about France invading England? We can't keep beating ourselves up over history - very few countries are innocent if you go back far enough.

If i go to the lake district, most of the staff in hotels are Eastern block. How did that happen? Those jobs were once done by locals. Have they all resigned en masse or are they now all trainee doctors? Did they all surrender their jobs preferring to lounge in their beds on their x boxes?

The "locals" were forced out by second home/holiday home owners pushing up house prices so that people can't afford to live in the Lake District anymore.

So on the one hand you say it's only dimwits who think that immigrants are here to steal your jobs, but on the other your reasoning directly implies that they're willing to accept a lower standard of living, isn't that right?

If the cost of housing is too high for the locals, then it must follow that the only way that the non-local workforce is managing is by cutting their cloth, right?

Why not go the whole way and start cleansing everyone who is a 'burden' to this full up country. Make a list of whose lives matter.

Disabled? Off you go. Health conditions, cancer? Sorry, you're on the list. Over 75? Too much care costs.