To think my work are trying to penalise me for not wearing makeup or dresses?

[Name1Changer123]

I work in a large office, there is no official dress code or uniform but men are expected to wear suits, and women 'to look presentable and buisnesslike'. I'm not girly and I don't like dresses or skirts so I usually wear just a blouse and ordinary black trousers. I never wear high heels or makeup because I don't feel the need to alter my face every morning and I can't walk in high heels.

A couple of times comments have been made about making sure we look presentable, seemingly directed at everyone in general so I just ignored them as I presumed I did.

Well this morning I was called in for a chat with my manager who said there had been a few comments that I didn't seem to be putting any effort in to look presentable and could I make sure I'm following the dress code (which is just to 'look presentable). Yes I basically just wear a blouse and trousers every day, but surely that is business like? The only reason I can think of why I'm not 'presentable' is my lack of make up. I'm literally the only one who doesn't wear any. There are ladies in my office who wear a blouse and a skirt and they never seem to get told off so aibu to think my office is trying to get me to wear makeup?

No email as of yet, my manager is a 'very busy man' apparently but will get to it.
Do him a favour and send your own!

Have been watching this and am flabbergasted by your updates.

Definitely summarise your two conversations and ask him to check you have this correctly for when you have a chat with HR. I do think you should raise this with them, especially if your colleague is experiencing low level sexism too.

Sounds like absolute bollocks and he must realise he doesn't have a leg to stand on!?!

On what planet are smart trousers and blouse or shirt not of equal smartness to skirt and top with cardigan? If you added a cardigan it would be a directly comparable outfit. If skirt-wearing woman takes her cardigan off, it's a directly comparable outfit. God knows what he's thinking.

He does sound like David Brent a twat.

I'd just carry on as you have been, as long as you're clean and presentable he doesn't have an argument.

No email as of yet, my manager is a 'very busy man' apparently but will get to it.

I find it best in these situations to send a brief, factual email of my own for them to respond to. "Dear manager, thank you for our talk at [time, date, place of original meeting] when you had said X. Yesterday at [time, date, place] I asked for clarification of the dress code. You suggested that if I were to dress in a "masculine" manner then I needed to conform to the male dress code. Can you please confirm this? Kind regards"

He was probably hoping that OP would trot off and buy a nice skirt and court shoes that would be the end of it.

I agree about sending him an email to clarify what he has said.

Keep records of all these exchanges. You may need them for legal reasons. Completely unacceptable to shoehorn you into wearing high heels or makeup

It's sexual discrimination.

Thanks for update OP.

He's squirming and knows that he's dug a hole for himself.

Hold tight - I'm glad that he's the one who is feeling awkward now.

How did Monday go OP?

Ok so the reality is that unless you choose to quit, you’re going to have to work with this guy.

So de-escalate. He’s given you an answer. Answer seems to be that, like everywhere I’ve worked, your office has unofficially got two dress codes: (1) formal wear, ie suits including jacket (and tie??); (2) an outfit where an overtly feminine/sexy style is permitted to replace formality. Yes sexist, but in UK culture a very common approach and the world is what it is. So either go on a mega crusade that will make work uncomfortable, or just pick an option. If you’re going for the suit look, then yes get some kind of jacket, and if the guys wear ties then consider some kind of female equivalent ie either a discreet necklace or floaty scarf, can just be something from a supermarket, the point is to look like you’re not at school.

Of course you are perfectly entitled to carry on wearing black trousers and a shirt but that does look a bit school-uniform unless super expensive or dressed up in some way ie scarf/necklace/jacket.

Manager is probably regretting ever saying anything. If he doesn’t follow up in writing then one option is just to carry on as normal. I doubt he specifically meant heels/skirt/makeup I think he meant everyone else around here looks adult and successful and your look isn’t quite fitting in can you have a think about how to tweak your style. To be honest unless you want a new job I would advise your top priority is to make your manager comfortable with you again ie say “thanks for raising a potentially awkward subject, I’ll reflect on it and see if I can find an affordable way to update my style.” You would only be saying this to make it easier to work together not because he is right, obvs his comments were sexist.

Congratulations on your civil and restrained responses to both this thread and your manager, you sound like a fab employee. (And well done for not posting photo what a silly idea from some.)

Skys, that's really poor advice. unless you want a new job I would advise your top priority is to make your manager comfortable with you again
No it isn't! Her priority is to make sure she isn't contravening a professional dress code, to do which she needs this chimerical email from her manager.

Yes sexist, but in UK culture a very common approach and the world is what it is. Can you imagine the world if the suffragettes had said that?

I’ll reflect on it and see if I can find an affordable way to update my style.” Her style doesn't need 'updating', FFS.

get some kind of jacket… consider some kind of female equivalent ie either a discreet necklace or floaty scarf, can just be something from a supermarket, the point is to look like you’re not at school. Why the living fuck should the OP buy new clothes and put on a scarf or a 'discreet' (whatever that means) necklace? And how, as a side point, is a necklace any kind of equivalent to a tie?

Hi, lurker on the thread... DarlingNikita, of course you are right, of course that is how the world should be.

But...looking at Sky’s reply, that is probably what I would have advised a junior in the office and what I will advise my daughters. Before I get flamed.... there are so many battles in the workplace (depending on work of course). I would fight to death for equal pay, equal access to clients, meetings and for my ideas to be implemented. Maybe I am old, but I could only fight so many battles at the same time. Dress code would not be one of them.

I could only fight so many battles at the same time. Dress code would not be one of them.

Then I hope your junior ignored you and I hope your daughters will do the same.

If you think that ideas like this about dress code and 'masculine' and 'feminine' notions of clothes/smartness are not connected to issues like equal pay, equal access to clients, meetings and women's ideas being implemented, you are frankly naive.

Maybe I misunderstood. I got the impression that the men wore suits, some women tried to make an alternative with a cardigan and OP just wore trousers and a smart shirt?

I would never have been the only person in the room without a jacket (I mainly worked with men). Some women seemed to make an effort to avoid a jacket with some feminine scarves/cardigan/stuff similar to what sky suggested (usually PAs, but some others as well). I never had the energy, so I wore a jacket.

Are you suggesting that OP should fight for the right to be the only person in a meeting without a jacket (if men only)?

OP continue to hold her ground on following the company dress code ie looking presentable, and let her sexist manager squirm and do the adjusting of his attitudes.

OP isn't 'fighting for the right' to be the only person doing anything. She's maintaining her right to wear clothes that are comfortable to her and which comply with the organisation's dress code.

It's not her who has acted incorrectly in this scenario - why should she be the one to change her behaviour?

Maybe I misunderstood. I got the impression that the men wore suits, some women tried to make an alternative with a cardigan and OP just wore trousers and a smart shirt?

My understanding is the same as yours; the OP says quite clearly that she wears trousers and a smart shirt and that some of her female colleagues wear cardigans. Are you being disingenuous?

I don't understand your focusing in on the jacket issue, when it seems clear from the OP's posts that her female colleagues tend not to wear them. The OP's manager, interestingly, was happy to say verbally that she should wear a suit like the men, but less happy (or less quick, anyway) to put it in writing. I have to wonder why.

Are you suggesting that OP should fight for the right to be the only person in a meeting without a jacket (if men only)?
That's a really silly question.

And how, as a side point, is a necklace any kind of equivalent to a tie?

Depending on what you do both can be used to strangle you? (which is why in my last job we weren't allowed to wear either).

Your boss cannot force you to wear a skirt if you don't want to. It's not the 1950s.

Wear a fake moustache.

Depending on what you do both can be used to strangle you? (which is why in my last job we weren't allowed to wear either).

Wear a fake moustache.

Hmm... the strangle aspect is slightly worrying

I guess my point is, there seem to be three dress codes in the office (as it was in my office) that are used and that the manager can get his head around.

1. suits
2. some kind of skirt/cardigan/scarf/necklace feminine stuff

Then we have
3) OP, who is the only one in her category wearing trousers and shirt, which unfortunately looks a bit like a suit minus the jacket.

Of course she should be able to wear what she likes if it is in line with the dress code, but it seems that people appear to have issues with this (possibly due to pea sized brains).

I am with OP regarding not liking the makeup, the fixed hair, high heels etc. My solution was always a jacket. Worn with odd trousers, skirt, dress or whatever, it alway looked sufficiently close to category 1) that I got away with it. And I was possibly (which of course is very sexist) taken more seriously as I looked professional in a way they understood. And I blended in at the meeting table. It was an easy fix.

Of course OP should be able to clarify, involve HR and get her version approved and eventually accepted if this is important to her. If she was my junior/daughter and felt strongly about it I would of course be supportive.

Or, an easy fix is to wear a jacket and avoid all hassle.

there seem to be three dress codes in the office (as it was in my office) that are used and that the manager can get his head around.

No, these are different things. The manager can't (or won't) get his head around what the OP wears.

Of course she should be able to wear what she likes if it is in line with the dress code It is very much to the point that the manager has been unable/unwilling to put in writing what the dress code is. And that he looked shifty and spoke vaguely when the OP tried to talk to him about it.

My solution was always a jacket. Fine for you, but the OP DOES NOT WANT TO BUY OR WEAR A JACKET. Because she is DIFFERENT FROM YOU.

Of course OP should be able to clarify, involve HR and get her version approved and eventually accepted if this is important to her. It is important to all women.

Or, an easy fix is to wear a jacket and avoid all hassle.
See above. Also think about who has caused the hassle and how he has responded when asked to clarify about it.

OP I can imagine you left the meeting feeling slightly embarrassed and confused. What a dick of a manager to not directly get to the point of the problem and leave you guessing.

I'd defo write to him asking what the actually problem is, has anyone complained I'm struggling to know why they've told you this now and not from the start.

My guess is lack of make up even though it's shit and I don't agree with having to wear it!
My old job I HAD to wear make up to "look presentable" but I didn't work in an office it was a casino. I don't understand why you'd need to wear make up in an office.