To think my work are trying to penalise me for not wearing makeup or dresses?

[Name1Changer123]

I work in a large office, there is no official dress code or uniform but men are expected to wear suits, and women 'to look presentable and buisnesslike'. I'm not girly and I don't like dresses or skirts so I usually wear just a blouse and ordinary black trousers. I never wear high heels or makeup because I don't feel the need to alter my face every morning and I can't walk in high heels.

A couple of times comments have been made about making sure we look presentable, seemingly directed at everyone in general so I just ignored them as I presumed I did.

Well this morning I was called in for a chat with my manager who said there had been a few comments that I didn't seem to be putting any effort in to look presentable and could I make sure I'm following the dress code (which is just to 'look presentable). Yes I basically just wear a blouse and trousers every day, but surely that is business like? The only reason I can think of why I'm not 'presentable' is my lack of make up. I'm literally the only one who doesn't wear any. There are ladies in my office who wear a blouse and a skirt and they never seem to get told off so aibu to think my office is trying to get me to wear makeup?

Katharine Hepburn and Diane Keaton. I've thrown Gwendoline Christie for good measure. She's over 6' tall and looks absolutely stunning.

And Marlene Dietrich - see link below. (Tried to post a photo but failed)

images.app.goo.gl/Q3CBsui8Mg2BBWB3A

Our CEO wears a Tintin watch. He's saying "I don't need to dress up to a higher grade, I'm already no1" grin

No, he's saying "No-one here gives a shit what you wear, it's what you do that counts"! The Tintin watch was a gift for either his 18th or 21st, so around 40 years old, and long pre-dates him being a CEO.

At head office, some people dress smartly, but it's definitely not expected. Trousers, jeans, dresses, shorts - I've seen all worn, by both genders (very LGBTQI friendly organisation).

Front line staff may have to visit really minging homes or work with clients who have issues with continence and challenging behaviour, so jeans and t-shirts are very normal wear. Piercings and tattoos, including facial ones, are not remarkable or remarked upon. Flip-flops are fine as long as you're not doing something where safety footwear is required. One director has a great range of Irregular Choice shoes, wears a lot of 60s and 70s vintage stuff and has her hair a different wild colour virtually every week.

I can't imagine working somewhere where an unplucked eyebrow would mark you out as "different" or not compliant with some unwritten code. Wtf would management at some of these places think if you displayed hairy armpits or legs?

I think these unwritten "codes" are discriminatory and aimed at excluding people. They are not accepting of cultural differences and achieve (intentionally or accidentally) a certain homegeneity among the workforce. People who are from a different social or economic background may never have learned how to tie a Windsor knot and for them a polyester tie might be the only kind they've seen.

Where these "codes" are in place, what do they do if someone comes to work in a sari or a shalwar kameez?

My guess is he's been watching the Apprentice and thinks all women in 'business' wear a face full of make up, hair blow dried every day, expensive outfits and run around town in high heels

Yep, and as all but one of them gets fired, the dressing up doesn’t get them far 😂😂

I tried to do the glam-in-heels thing once and fell over and ripped my tights. I stick to flats now.

Seriously though, thank god I don't work with some of you. When I decided to re-qualify into law, my mum told me that I wouldn't get a job because I didn't look like a lawyer. Why? I asked. "You're not polished." Polished, for her, meant glossy, make-up, heels, pretty. Thin. I've given the word a side-eye ever since.

I chose my area of practice and workplace carefully, and I'm really good at my job. Yet sometimes I wear jeans to work, I never wear make-up, and I don't own a tailored jacket. It has no bearing on how well I do my job, nor should it.

I think it's disgusting that in a meeting where they called you in to tell you that you weren't meeting the dress code, they didn't point out what wasn't meeting the dress code and needed correcting
I suspect because the manager really wants to say something truly sexist, but cant cos laws. So is hoping OP will pick up by magical thinking what he means, without him having to actually say..... wear heels, do makeup, buy fancier clothes.

Some of the views on this thread have been proper backwards in time. Awful how women are still thought of as mere arm candy/dolls to be dressed to the nines never mind practical, money, its just a fucking job people.

Some of the views on this thread have been proper backwards in time.

It reminds me of when I first started work, in the early 70s. There were still offices where women weren't allowed to wear trousers. By the 80s, that had largely changed, but in some places trousers were only allowed if they were part of a trouser suit.

I was an estate agent for about 3 years in the early 80s. Women were expected to wear heels, which struck me as fucking ridiculous. There was a lot of development going on and I'd often be doing valuations on what were basically building sites. In heels, ffs.

How did it go today OP?
Hope you got some kind and constructive feedback

A relative of mine, not that much older than me, was telling me how they were expected to turn up to work wearing white gloves in summer (at the end of a train commute into London).

I can remember when, even with no formal dress code, you wouldn't have worn trousers to work if you were "scientific officer" or above. Lab assistants could, but they'd be wearing a lab coat all day. And you certainly wouldn't wear trousers to an interview, not even as part of a "trouser suit".

Hi all, just an update on how today went. Thanks for the replies, I've only really scanned through them, but will read through a bit later.

I got to work this morning and had a discreet chat with my colleague. She could find nothing wrong with my appearance whatsoever, and she thought it might be sexism as well. She told me how the manager sometimes says 'good girl' to her and it really annoys her to the point she asked him not to. (never had this happen to me though!!- I'm taller than him so I guess that would be a bit weird)

I then asked my manager if he had a minute, I got the 'I am very busy you know' response, but he said if it's quick, go ahead. So basically I asked for clarification from Friday's chat. I apologised for not asking at the time, and said, I'm confused what part of my appearance isn't up to standard. He looked a bit uncomfortable, but basically said that (paraphrasing here, can't remember exactly how he worded it) if I want to dress in a more masculine fashion, that's my choice, but if I'm going to do that it has to be an actual suit, so basically follow the men's dress code. He said a few people had commented that I didn't look smart enough compared to the men. I said okay thanks for clarifying, he did say 'or you could always wear a skirt!!)' which I was a bit about, but anyways.

I asked him for it in writing as well, just so I have proof. He hasn't emailed it yet but he will do. It looks like I'll have to invest in a new suit (only have one and it's pretty shabby looking)

Anyways, would have been easier if he'd have just said on Friday that I need to wear a suit, don't know how he expected me to be a mindreader, but at least I know now.

" if I want to dress in a more masculine fashion, that's my choice, but if I'm going to do that it has to be an actual suit, so basically follow the men's dress code. "

I would challenge this. If the rule is "everyone wears a suit" that's one thing. If the rule is "everyone male wears a suit" I'd call that sexist.

You are wearing smart separates. So are other people. There is nothing wrong with that.

Oh and don't spend any money
I suspect he will check with HR before putting it in writing and will likely withdraw his comment.

He's reasonable for it to be raised if your level of smartness isn't comparable to the male suits. I think it's fairly common that women's office basics don't match the formality expected of men (and I think that does lead to a misplaced idea that a couple of basics equals professional dress for women).
If the expectation is formal dress comparable to suits then I don't think it's unreasonable to expect women to wear skirt/dress and jacket or a trouser suit, or trouser, blouse jacket (and in that context I'd say that the black trousers and top basics would be under that level of formality).

However, his comments about dressing more masculine are out of order and his suggestion that you should consider wearing a skirt is out of order.

I'd take it as a statement of formality. They're wanting professional dress, so a trouser suit or trousers blouse and jacket are totally acceptable.

At least you know there is a simple solution of a couple of trouser suits. However I do think he's on sketchy ground there.

Yeah, like I said, just buy a couple of jackets. Job done.

He sounds like a fucking dinosaur.

But if the others are allowed to wear cardigans, or shirt and skirt, then why is it not okay for op to wear shirt and trousers? There's no logic or fairness to it.

So if you wear trousers it has to be a suit as trousers are masculine. If you wore a skirt though it wouldn’t matter, it wouldn’t have to be a suit.

Clearly the answer is to ask whether the men can wear cardigans instead of jackets. That way, what you're wearing fits the base formality level appropriate for men and women. If men can't wear cardigans but women can, why?

When you get his email, forward it to HR for clarification. If they want to go down the lines of gender-specific dress codes they are going to have to clarify that in the dress code policy.

I think in his response is a nugget of a helpful steer. Wear a smart jacket if you’re wearing trousers. Doesn’t have to match. There are lots of great colourful blazers in the shops at the moment and are long line/boxy; would suit your height.

When you get his email, forward it to HR for clarification. If they want to go down the lines of gender-specific dress codes they are going to have to clarify that in the dress code policy.

This, with big jingly bells on. Add in, if he doesn't mention it, that as he suggested "you could wear a skirt" would you current top half clothing be acceptable when worn with a skirt but not when worn with trousers?

The man is clearly a sexist dickhead, who the fuck thinks saying 'good girl' to a co-worker is ok?

If he doesn't send the email OP then summarise in an email yourself what he suggested and say if there is anything else for him to let you know.

Are you in a union?

He sounds like an utter twat by the way.

if I want to dress in a more masculine fashion, that's my choice, but if I'm going to do that it has to be an actual suit, so basically follow the men's dress code. He said a few people had commented that I didn't look smart enough compared to the men.

This is utter shite. You say 'There are ladies in my office who wear a blouse and a skirt and they never seem to get told off' and 'Most women in my office wear dresses or skirts, sometimes with a cardigan.'

A blouse and a skirt is NOT a suit or equivalent to one. A dress/skirt with a cardigan is NOT a suit or equivalent to one.

And what the actual living fuck is 'a more masculine fashion'?
He's a sexist shit.

For the love of GOD don't buy new clothes off the back of this!

Don't wait too long for him to email you. I suspect he just won't and will hope you 'forget' and just buy a dress or a skirt like a good girl. Email him summarising what was said and ask him to agree/add to/correct anything that isn't accurate. Explain that you'll be following up with HR as the dress code isn't clear to you and you obviously want to clarify it.

Watch the twat backtrack.

OMG - he is so in the dark ages.

You do NOT need to go and buy suit jackets.

I would definitely write to him and say, "I found our chat really informative today. Can I just confirm, you feel that if I am going to dress in a masculine way wearing trousers with my blouse that I must wear a suit like the men and add a jacket? Or alternatively, you have said I can wear a skirt and then I don't need to dress like the men in a suit?"

He is a twat!

Go in with a fake beard and a cod piece. If questioned, tell him you got confused and thought the brief was to "dress in a more masculine fashion"