...to buy radar key online to use disabled loo?

[Marigo]

I’m not disabled and neither are any of my children, however I’m often out with my 3 under 2.5 and in our local shopping centre loos there’s no toilet in the baby change. The ladies is impossible with double buggy plus buddy board and the disabled requires a radar key. Same for the loos in the two big department stores so I just can’t go out into town unless it’s the weekend and my husband can come in case I need a wee! I’m struggling to leave the house for this stress but my mom is disabled and I know how shit it is when she can’t use the large cubicle she needs. I’m really conflicted about what to do.

YABU. I'm disabled. The fecilities are there for a reason.

From someone who has had a fairly severe disability since birth...
I'm also a Mum of 3
Only the first sentence entitles you to a Radar Key
Hopefully I have enlightened you
By the way.... You can't use a disabled space at the supermarket either!!!

There's (very roughly) around 40 million parents in the UK and around 11 million disabled people.

It doesn't take much to figure out that if parents who do not have a disability, of children who do not have a disability, abuse the accessible facilities for those who DO have a disability... it becomes a problem for those who do have a disablity.

The other irony is that this discussion about whether its ok to abuse the rights fought for by a minority and vulnerable group, is taking place on a forum where a certain group are vehement that a certain group is trying to take over and abuse the rights of a vulnerable group.

The reason accessible toilets EXIST is because disabled people fought for them. The same can be said for parking spaces which is another area where more and more, disabled facilities are being mashed together with parent and child facilities.

Their provision is still insufficient, many do not meet even the basic standards.

On several occasions I have had to leave my wheelchair outside, and go to the toilet with the door open, not into a private area full of other cubicles, but into a shop foyer, into a busy store front floor... into a hotel corridor...

On more than one occasion I have got into the toilet, only to discover that as the toilet seat height doesn't actually meet the requirements, I can't get on it, or if I can.. I can't wipe my own arse.

Once I couldn't get to the toilet without leaning on the sink, the sink was held up by an aluminium beer keg, it fell off the wall and landed on my foot. There was an emergency pull cord but have a guess where exactly it was... tied up so it hung 3ft off the fucking ceiling.

I was once bursting for the loo, rolled into the toilet to discover it was knee deep in piss, because no one had cleaned it. Other peoples piss, all over my shoes, jeans bottoms, all over my wheels and rims and thus, all over my hands.

In one toilet the door opened out into a corridor that prevented the door opening fully, meaning I couldn't get my wheelchair into the toilet, not only did I have to leave it outside but I had the choice of pissing in front of multiple conference attendees, or, shutting the door and leaving my extremely expensive wheelchair unattended, in a building of 1000 strangers.

In hundreds of places, to go to the toilet, I have to go and locate the person with the key and ask permission to go to the toilet... do you have a clue what that feels like as an adult?

I am really lucky, as long as I can get IN the toilet and the toilet seat isn't stupidly high, I am ok. I don't need to change myself, empty a bag, take off calipers or wait until my arsehole stops spewing blood...

There are still people, many of them, for whom suitable accessible toilet facilities STILL do not exist in many places, and their needs mean they simply cannot go out, at all.

So no, it might not inconvenience someone if you just 'nip in' quickly because its more convenient for you... but when EVERY parent with a big buggy does that, then hell yes it's going to be a problem.

The general message is even if you're having issues with incontinence after birth (which is a choice, you know), which means 'you can't hold it'; unless you can magic someone to come out with you you have to stay indoors until your children are confidently walking without a pram (this could be up to 24 months). The other option is to either wee with the door open and the buggy jammed in the door, or leave them on their own outside the cubicle.

Or just don't have kids incase this happens.

It took me a few times using the toilet to get over the guilt when I first got my key. Not because I wasn't eligible but how I process things and getting to terms with everything that was going on at the time.

I'm in the hidden camp although some days you can see I look ill.

I've been sworn at, shouted at and one memorable occasion spat at.

If a door requires the key you should only be using it if you need it. It wasn't even hard getting the key, just went to the local council with a letter from gp/hospital and a couple of quid. If the door has no key well it's open to all.

Having to buzz someone to use a toilet? Fuck that. No-one else has to get permission. And it takes away a facility to those that need it. Not everyone who cannot communicate goes out with someone. I wouldn't be appaulding this, I would be naming and shaming for their exclusion.

And if a staff member asked to see evidence I would be making official complaints about them. I show evidence to the relevant people, not jobsworth who have no reason to know my personal information.

There is another option other than always taking a mate, not going out, leaving the door open, or worse unattended.

Incontinence pants/pads.
I am sure I am not the only, but between the time of needing the key and having something medically written down, I wore incontinence pants. Well, I say needing, I mean accepting. Even now with a key and I am going somewhere I am really uncertain about the facilities, I wear a pant. And if I am travelling anywhere by coach, I wear a pant. Although I suggest anyone travelling on the coach, especially national express, wear a pad. Those things are health hazards even if just to the nose of other passengers 😀

That's very true, and I appreciate a lot of people do need to wear pads etc everyday due to things of which they had no choice about (unlike having children). But honestly, I don't feel that because general toilets aren't made to be fit prams in that this should be the only option. FWIW I only did laps around the block most days so I was close to the toilet at home, and would only go to baby groups where there wasn't anyone except our group so could use any toilet (if that makes sense). Looking back that wasn't healthy, but it honestly dictated my life as issues with incontinence do for many people. I didn't go out of my home town for over a year as I didn't know what the toilet situation would be, my mental health was in tatters (not just because of that)- in a way I wish I had just used those toilets, but I didn't. Some days someone would come out with me, but my partner was deployed for 4 months and friends and family were at work so this was fairly rare. Ah well, it's good for the planet as mostly due to this I don't want anymore children.

Btw I'm not saying everyone with prams should use accessible toilets, of course not. Just that it's not always just a case of feeling entitled as you've had a baby, or because you don't want to wait for a toilet- sometimes there's more to it, and there's an easy solution really; just one long and wide cubicle at the end of a row in the ladies! I've had to wee a few times with the door open, it was actually less humiliating wetting myself as I could hurriedly escape home.

So why don't parents campaign for this wider toilet then? You're all saying you need it but no one is doing anything about getting them put in as standard.

1. buy a smaller pram
2. use a single pram and carrier
3. stop going to a shopping centre so much
4. perhaps campaign to have a toilet added to the baby changing room?

The shopping centre closest to me has a wonderful baby changing unit, it’s humongous and accessible to all. Says it’s award winning and I can see why. I sympathise with you, I had three under three myself and going out seemed like an impossible task. I don’t think you should buy a key to open the disabled loo though .

I think you’re getting an unnecessarily hard time on here. Although what I would probably do if I needed a wee was flag down a stranger and ask them to keep an eye on the buggy for 2 mins whilst I nipped to the ladies (probably taking the eldest with me).

I have one for my son who has high support needs. I also have a disability. I don't think you are unreasonable. As a PP said, it's about accessibility and it will improve your quality of life greatly, it's not about convenience it's about you actually being able to get out and about with your small children.

Use it for the time you need it, and then gift the key to someone who needs it..

I think you'll find that actually disabled people will have much less of a problem with you making your life a little less miserable because I think we will get it.

Ignore the judgey abled people who probably never give the disabled a second thought.

I wonder what they are doing in their every day lives to make public spaces more accessible and welcoming for the disabled....

Why should OP not go to the shopping centre as much? How are you going to get a smaller pram for 3 children? I had a tiny pram and it didn't fit in either. @TequilaPilates people have, but the attitude is pretty similar to here- basically tough luck, or take a 'common sense approach' to using the facilities already in place eg accessible. I wrote to the local council whose brand new leisure centre had a baby changing room with no toilet (why does this even happen), and a disabled toilet; they said to use the disabled so the pram would fit in. The campaign with probably the most coverage was the one to get baby changing tables in mens toilets, why is that no a surprise. Who listens to women anyway.

Because it needs to be a more organised campaign that goes centrally. Of course if 1 or 2 people write to their local council.it won't go anywhere.

Disabled access required changes in law. Having a disability is a protected characteristic under the EA and as such reasonable adjustments have to be made, 1 of which is providing accessible toilets.

Being a parent with a big pram isn't a protected characteristic.

Why not campaign with the NCT or another big parenting organisation to lobby MPs to mandate for pram accessible toilets? That's what needs to happen - businesses need to be compelled by law to provide these.

You're saying is it right that mums should have to stay at home because there aren't toilets available. Well, do you think it's ok for people with disabilities to have to stay at home because toilets, provided for them, are being used by other people and so they can't risk it?

You have choices - buy another pram, go shopping with a friend or partner, find a shopping centre that has suitable toilets. Can you not understand that people with disabilities can't opt out of them?

"I've taken to asking to see a 'disabled card' to gain access, that soon filters out the disingenuous."
What card! People with disabilities might not have one as they genuinely dont exist for every disability! I have a family member with a brain injury and we bought a card for them explaining their speech difficulties, but that was down to us..you aren't issued with a card when you get a disability just as there is no disability register. You are doing the people with hidden disabilities here a disservice.

YABU. My DS is severely disabled. He walks but has a severe learning disability, he's grown up but still in nappies, he's got the mind of an 18 month old, in a rugby players body. Getting him out of the car and to a toilet is an absolute nightmare. If he's waiting, he can become very violent, very fast. Public toilets can ruin our whole day. I nearly had the tip of my nose bit off once. He also needs both me and DH to sort him out, so either the male or female toilet is of no use.

Also, the amount of people who park in disabled spaces, without a badge, is getting worse and worse. It really has an impact on what we can and can't do.

I'd say 99.9 percent of the time when we go to the loo when out and about, the disabled toilets are completely empty. So it really wouldnt matter if a mum of 3 and a double buggy used it. Ive never ever come out to find someone waiting. The majority of them have baby changing facilities in them anyway. We also always find a disabled parking space without a problem. In fact our local shopping centre has rows and rows of them and they are always empty.

This is quite indicative on the bigger issue facing disabled people. Many disabled people spent a lot of time and effort campaigning for improved facilities, a campaign that still goes on because so many of the facilities provided actually only meet the very minimum requirements which for a lot of people with disabilities doesn’t come close to meeting their needs. (There are disabled toilets that it’s a squeeze to get me and Ds in his child sized wheelchair into while opening heavy doors)

Then parents have decided things like disabled toilets and spaces on buses are easier for them so take over them in much greater numbers than the amount of disabled people who need these spaces. They pay little or no consideration to what that means for those who have fought to be able to leave the house.

Of course parents could campaign for their own facilities but they won’t because for them it’s only a few years of slight inconvenience and someone else has done the legwork for another group so they see no need.

Wait, so you chose to have children and you think you should be able to use the disabled toilet because of this? When did having children be a disability?

• @MitziK* Lots of us have busy jobs you have to learn to be more assertive, people (including school age children) should be able to wait the couple of minutes it takes you to use the loo. Waiting 7.5 hours to use the loo is very unhealthy.

@Getmyfrownupsidedown honestly please don’t keep asking people for a card. I’m autistic, I don’t have a “card” nor do any of the other autistic people I know.

It’s rare for me to use or ask to use the disabled loo, if I do it’s because I’m on the verge of a meltdown, having my disability questioned can send me into panic mode and just make everything ten times worse. You might think that’s being dramatic, but it’s like that for a lot of autistic people.

Perhaps I would appear disingenuous to you because it’s likely if you asked to see a card I would just shout sorry and run away because I’m unable to handle that kind of social interaction. Embarrassingly enough I have actually wet myself before because I’m too scared to ask to use the loo for fear of making a social error.

Please just bear in mind people are not always as they seem.

I think it’s completely wrong that people are able to purchase Radar Keys online. I Had to show proof that my child is disabled to my local council (DLA Letter) before they would give me a Radar Key.

When did pushchairs turn into chelsea tractors? I had a double buggy which was designed to fit through standard shop doors and entrances including public lavatories. (Mclaren, umbrella fold, could use it one handed) It wasn't expensive and took the children from birth.

I'm bemused at why people buy huge buggies if they want to use public transport or get around shops easily unless they assume to use the spaces made for the disabled after long campaigns.

Yellobutterfly....they've been for sale on line for at least 20 years.