To be baffled as to why women accept this?

[Atticusblame]

I went out for drinks with my friend last night. Her partner has just moved into her flat. I asked how it was going and she said he was very messy and didn't do any housework. She's now given him specific jobs which are his.

She said 'he is tidying up tonight too. He's just asked me to write a list of what needs doing and he said he'll get it done.'

I said nothing, but thought to myself why the fuck do so many women accept this, and actually think it's helpful? Why do they think men cannot see what needs doing as well as they do? Can't they see that it is just so the man gets away with not having to think about anything domestic?

It infuriates me is much. AIBU to think that women shouldn't accept that a man needs a list of housework?

DoctorAllcome - but the status quo is not maintained by force, it's subtly maintained by social conditioning. It's pretty hard to undo what's been ingrained into you about women's and men's roles since you were a tiny child. Not impossible, but not easy.

Nobody is saying that women have no choices or freedoms. Calling women disgusting and ignorant for pointing out the remaining inequalities and misogyny is frankly offensive. And no, misogyny is in no way a tiny shrinking minority. It is visible everywhere every day.

I never said misogyny does not exist, just that it is a tiny shrinking minority. And it is. It isn't.

And as for men killing women, they kill other men and themselves at far higher rates. Three quarters of murder victims are men, not women.

And how many women kill men? Male violence is the issue here.

I used to despair about my husbands seeming 'inability' to 'see what needed done'. He'd hoover, but wouldn't move the dining chairs or anything so you could still see crumbs etc on the carpets.

When I complained he claimed 'no-one will notice, who looks under a table!' :(

This continued until he asked me to wash and hoover his car as he had a big important meeting he was driving colleagues to. So he took my car to work and I was to deliver his to him at midday. :)

Imagine my surprise when I was told by my DH that apparently HIS friends and colleagues COULD see that only SOME panels of the car were washed and that EVERYONE would see that only the drivers side of the whole car was hoovered. :) :) LOL.

He later admitted it did shock him that I was prepared to embarrass him in front of his workmates, and made him see that I was left embarrassed with MY friends when he only did 1/2 a job !

I can only speak for myself, but a lot of what I do/organise around the house is because I don't want my DD to live in a chaotic tip, not have the right uniform for school etc. It's not as simple as just choosing to put up with inequality, once there are DC involved.

Also actual equality would mean mothers and fathers were judged equally for the grubby house, missing uniform etc...which is far from the case.

Why are you here bemoaning the lot of men?
Ah....so I call BS on your bemoaning the lot of women constantly being killed by men by listing the actual statistics showing that women are in REALITY way less likely to be murdered than men are and you twist that into bemoaning the lot of men. Yet you cling to your dystopian fantasy that women are being killed off and calling us all Handmaids. Yep.....riiiiight women are all sex slaves in a horrible misogynistic world according to you.

Calling women disgusting and ignorant for pointing out the remaining inequalities and misogyny is frankly offensive

That was NOT what she was doing. She said we are Handmaids. That the norm/average is misogyny in the home.
Completely different. And completely offensive for her to state that women today are just like Handmaids in a dystopian fictional book/show. I have been the one saying that any inequalities and misogyny remaining is small and not the norm.

the region in south africa where women and girls are routinely being killed, where women and girls are killed daily in domestic situations. To try to pretend there isn't a sex based agenda is shocking.

What about tribal lands in s. Africa? So I prove you wrong about women in the 1st world being “forced” to do domestic work in the home (they are not, they choose to), so you start dragging in women and their rights in deepest Africa as if that is proof that a London wife feeling put out Is actually “forced” to wash dishes? Whooo boy. You’ve lost the argument if you have to make that big of a stretch.

@lazylinguist
the status quo is not maintained by force, it's subtly maintained by social conditioning. It's pretty hard to undo what's been ingrained into you about women's and men's roles since you were a tiny child. Not impossible, but not easy.

Lazy argument. It’s soooooooo hard to overcome all sexist upbringing. Sure, funny that its considered to be easy as pie to overcome a racist or homophobic upbringing though isn’t it? Hmmm? Such that people lose their job and careers over a single racist or homophobic joke. But sexism, OMG that’s engrained, no way we can stop ourselves. No way we can actually be antisexist and choose to not reinforce sexist behaviours and roles.

@doctorallcome - you are purposefully ignoring the reality that for many women it's not just about "choosing to be a martyr". OP was originally making the point that she finds it astonishing that so many women DO still put up with this. And it's a fact that they do, notwithstanding your supposed belief that its a choice. I'll mention that to the woman whose career has been derailed by children and maternity leave and whose husband has now decided he doesn't have to do a thing b ut she has no money or options to leave.

As for your GP/Doctor analogy. It's true that GPs are increasingly women. this is because in the medical profession, being a GP is the only type of medicine that has any chance of being family friendly and because many specialisms exhibit direct or indirect sexism which makes it very difficult for women to break into them. The hours are difficult, male students are more likely to get the best placements/reviews etc etc etc. So many women who go into medicine take the decision to become a GP rather than attempting to specialise.

And yes, You're going to say that's a "choice" but you know, when you are CONSTANTLY having to be 3x better than your male peers, it gets tiring. When you' want to have a family but your options for work ONLY include working 38 hour shifts, that's not really a choice. when the PHYSICAL reality of being pregnant and having a baby at best delays or career but at works derails it completely... well, sometimes women just don't have the fight in them for every single issue.

@blingloving
I’m a woman with a career and children. I know reality ok? And no the physical reality of pregnancy and children does not have to delay or derail a career. You can have a family and work as many hours as you choose to. You don’t have to limit yourself to 38hrs a week. Most women here in the US certainly continue working over 40hrs/week post childbirth.
That’s you bemoaning your choice to take time off work and your choice to work fewer hours.
And unless you are chained up every night, you can choose to leave. The U.K. has a much better welfare system than the US and even here women can and do pack their shit, grab or leave their kids, and leave their husband/partner. Not leaving (absent DV psychological issues), is a choice.
It’s not easy but no one has a right to easy choices with no consequences.

I know reality ok?

That remark shows your attitude to others.

As do all your other comments.

You talk in a bizarre fixed way about everyone how you know reality, dismissing that everyone else knows their reality also.

I am guessing all the her and she references were at me. Rude.

Just to put you straight on yet another point, it is only you saying that mysogyny is a tiny shrinking minority. I didn't say it was the norm/average either. You are telling others that what I am saying.

I am not saying many of the things you say I am. You are kind of just making those things up. I'm not sure why, but I am not saying the things you keep insisting I am.

Your rhetoric is coming over now as unreasonable, and no longer worth engaging with.

I thought I would just sit back and let you wander on and see what you had to say, but its not proved worthy because you are ignoring all that others are saying here and then you go on to restate them incorrectly.

Thats nonsensical, and denial of others experiences that they are telling you.

Women are not killing men. Again. Women are still not killing men. Men are killing women in domestic violence at the same rate.

Mother of five,

“I didn't say it was the norm/average...” Yes, you did say it was the norm....when you said:

Muppet Really? I dont know women who don't see what needs doing, in the main they have responsibility for their daily grind, whether they want it or not.

And

It totally has been the nations normal over generations for the socialisation of men/women that men get treated like overgrown children by many.

“Your rhetoric is coming over now as unreasonable...” nope, it’s your rhetoric about Handmaids that is entirely exaggerated hyperbole. You said:
To pretend that mysogyny in the home isn't still a thing is pretty blind to what's going on. Handmaidens an' all.

Twice
You seem to believe that mysogyny and handmaids no longer exist. Oh well. All the while the rate at which men kill women remains constant.

So, when you then referenced men killing women directly after saying exist. You stated it as if male killers were targeting women above all other demographics as if it were Gilead. When in fact, statistically, a man is 14x more likely to kill himself than a woman. And 3.5x more likely to kill another man than a woman. But you take offence to me putting male violence against women into perspective by giving the REALITY on all male violence.

Oh, and you’re wrong about this one too:
Men are killing women in domestic violence at the same rate.

Nah, the rate has been steadily decreasing....

“At the global level, the homicide rate, which measures homicides as a proportion of the population, has been decreasing slowly for over two decades, from a peak of 7.4 per 100,000 in 1993 to 6.1 per 100,000 in 2017, including a period of steady decrease from 1993 to 2007 and a period of stability thereafter...

“Between 2005 and 2017 the total homicide rate decreased by 3 per cent worldwide (from 6.31 to 6.14 per 100,000 population) but with large variations in regional patterns: while homicide decreased by 54 per cent in Europe (where you are my British mother of five), it increased by 19 per cent in the Americas (where I am). As shown in figure 24, in the Americas, the homicide rate over that period increased the most among males aged 15–59 years and females aged 15–59 years, but decreased among males under 15 years of age, males aged 60+ years and females aged 60+ years. By contrast, the homicide rate in Europe decreased almost uniformly, by between 50 and 60 per cent, among all age groups.”
From UNDOC Global Study on Homicide 2019.
www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/gsh/Booklet2.pdf

That the norm/average is misogyny in the home.

So when you say, you didn't say this, that ^ IS exactly what you said. Whereas you have overlaid what I've said (when giving a contrasting view to yours about women all having choice, etc) I said those around me are all taking the responsibility.

You have stretched that to me saying its the norm.

Again, its NOT what I said.

Stop restating and changing my words. Or interpreting them the way YOU want to.

I havent even read the rest of your post. Your posts seem pointless to read further, as I said.

You won't force your world view onto me, and I disgree with you because I dont see what you see. I have evidence of it around me.

There are also international statistics.

I talked about tribes and towns around j'burg. Again, pointless with your hounding of my words.

You are not getting agreement here, on this thread with your forcing your own sheltered tunnel vision reality on others.

Are you still.following your thread OP?

What do you think?

Men may be more likely to kill themselves or other men than to kill women, but the point is that whenever someone is killed by another human, it's far more likely to have been done by a man than a woman, regardless of who the victim is.

Lol. You are the sheltered one mother of five which is why you are crying over housework and acting like that is misogyny and you are a Handmaid with no choice. Drama queening it up, screaming help help I’m so oppressed.

You're not very pleasant are you.

I was struggling to realise you thought you were talking about me there

You have no idea my life, and you make massive assumptions.

Regardless, women are not kiling men.

I'm screaming I'm so oppressed - not once
Im crying - I'm not
I'm sheltered - I'm not
Drama queening it up - do you like insulting other women? Thats a pretty gross thing to say to another woman.
a handmaiden with no choice just hahahaha!!
I pick up mens socks - nope not that either
the sheltered life I do in fact live just hilarious

How do you arrogantly make all this shit up and still think you will be taken with anything other than a pinch of salt, and a chuckle uproarous laughter

Whats your gripe with women?

As far as I’m concerned, if a man can learn to remember to wipe his backside successfully, he can learn to wipe a worktop when he makes a mess. If he can put petrol in his car he can put a plate in a dishwasher. If he can run a finger over stubble to check he’s shaved his face properly he can run a finger over a skirting board to look for dust. There are countless lazy bastards out there pretending they can’t do any chores because it’s beyond their brains and women are innately so much better at doing it.

Her point was to wrongly say that women are the #1 victims of male violence

Wrong yet again

Women are not killing men. Men are killing women, dv lives, mysogyny lives.

The stats remain a constant that show this.

Yabu to be infuriated about something that has nothing to do with you.

But it IS to do with her.
It's to do, in fact, with 51% of 5he population. The part that doesnt display entitlement & learned helplessness at the other 49%, in order to get clean away with our lazy, selfish arrogance.

You are at an exponentially lower risk of being a victim of male violence, ergo your life is more sheltered than mine that’s a FACT not an ASSUMPTION.

Were you shouting at me there?

As I can categorically tell you you are wrong. I never said what you quoted me as saying.

Were you quoting me or you?

Sheltered isn't something I've levelled at you, and, along with all the other outrageous lies you've made up about me, also wrong.

Are you still.following your thread OP?

What do you think?

I agree with you entirely. I don’t think there is much point in arguing with DoctorAllcome.

As an update on the OP... Shocker of shockers, he did not complete the list DF wrote either.