To be baffled as to why women accept this?

[Atticusblame]

I went out for drinks with my friend last night. Her partner has just moved into her flat. I asked how it was going and she said he was very messy and didn't do any housework. She's now given him specific jobs which are his.

She said 'he is tidying up tonight too. He's just asked me to write a list of what needs doing and he said he'll get it done.'

I said nothing, but thought to myself why the fuck do so many women accept this, and actually think it's helpful? Why do they think men cannot see what needs doing as well as they do? Can't they see that it is just so the man gets away with not having to think about anything domestic?

It infuriates me is much. AIBU to think that women shouldn't accept that a man needs a list of housework?

I dont know women who don't see what needs doing, in the main they have responsibility for their daily grind, whether they want it or not.

That doesn’t mean they do not exist. I know quite a few, my mother was one. She could not be bothered to do any housework.

There is no pink/blue binary of domestic chores. There are only chores. Who does them is 100% negotiable.

I agree with muppet in that it is wrong to make this into a man/woman thing.

I think it's often normalised that men are like overgrown children who "don't see mess" or can't do housework.

Of course, every individual regardless of sex will have different domestic standards but when you live together these should broadly assimilate and both parties should pull their weight. It's not fair for one person to have overly poor or overly high standards that affect others' enjoyment of their home.

Clearing up after yourself and leaving areas tidy is not "housework" in my view and is simply part of being an adult.

There is no pink/blue binary of domestic chores. There are only chores. Who does them is 100% negotiable.

But in reality, in a disproportionate amount of cases the burden always appears to fall to the woman.

I think it's often normalised that men are like overgrown children who "don't see mess" or can't do housework.

Yes, this is what it is. As well as the housework, I also had the story that he's had to have Supernoodles or a takeaway because she wasn't in to cook. As if it's just normal and reasonable that a man can't be expected to look after himself, his own mess and his own meals.

But in reality, in a disproportionate amount of cases the burden always appears to fall to the woman.

So what? Are we gonna complain that a disporportionate number of doctors are women and wail about the “burden” of keeping lazy men healthy? Are we gonna complain that a disportionate number of train drivers are men and wail about the “burden” of chauffeuring lazy women about?

NO. It doesn’t matter that it’s not 50/50 because anything other than 50/50 or 0/100 or 100/0 is what you get when you have freedom to choose and negotiate your own daily grind whatever that might be.

It's not fair for one person to have overly poor or overly high standards that affect others' enjoyment of their home.

I agree that this is part of compatibility for living with anyone be it housemate or partner. Everyone can have their own standards, but the consequence is people with very different standards are incompatible and should not live together. Unless they love to be miserable.

So what? Are we gonna complain that a disporportionate number of doctors are women and wail about the “burden” of keeping lazy men healthy? Are we gonna complain that a disportionate number of train drivers are men and wail about the “burden” of chauffeuring lazy women about? Eh? Not even half of the UK doctors are women. Regardless of that, this is an utterly illogical analogy. Doctors and train drivers are paid for what they do. A man and woman living in a household together are not paid to do their own washing up and hoovering.

It doesn’t matter that it’s not 50/50 because anything other than 50/50 or 0/100 or 100/0 is what you get when you have freedom to choose and negotiate your own daily grind whatever that might be. And yet so many men manage to negotiate 100/0 in their favour, and then present it as a being helpful if they allow the woman to write down instructions as to what exactly they should do to make it more 95/5.

I think that's totally understandable because you drew the list up together. It would be different if your boyfriend had said to you 'Walkies, just write down what you want me to do', and then contributed nothing more to the thought process.

Agreed, there's nothing less sexy than having a DP who you have to treat like a child. But (and maybe I'm being a pushover) if he's willing to tidy up and just wants some direction as to what she'd like him to do, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I am shocked reading about the imbalance in responsibilties on this thread though!

It totally has been the nations normal over generations for the socialisation of men/women that men get treated like overgrown children by many. Oooo isn't he good doing the ironing/washing dishes/making a cuppa etc.

No wo/man commented this way about a woman, ever foe her ironing/tea making etc.

It IS a male/female thing, socialisation, and some wo/men still live it.

I've had various experiences of this where people male/female just do whatever needs doing and nothibg in particuyis left to the other person,male or female, I've also experienced the male whose more dominant in the home role, being more responsible for the house duties/gardening, food shopping/cooking and cleaning, and I've fitted in around that, but then there's those men who still believe its wife work, and wouldn't be seen dead taking responsibility for any of it and watch their wife slowly die under the utter dreary grind and exhaustion of doing it all, because ..no help, and you just cant make anyone do it.

To pretend that mysogyny in the home isn't still a thing is pretty blind to what's going on. Handmaidens an' all.

I get what you're saying, Walkies, but I just can't see why he would need at direction. It's not a case of specifics, but the obvious, general stuff.

I agree, Smother. My friend is in her early 30s. She's clever, independent etc., and yet is willing to do all of the cooking, the majority of the cleaning, and the mental load for the bits of cleaning he offers to do 'for her'.

I will accept that I really do not like him and this is another thing in a line of things he's done to take the piss.

The rule should be never to move in with a man who hasn't lived alone. Do not pick up where his mother left off, let him learn to look after himself first.

My mother in law never let my DH do anything in the house, she kept a pristine house because that was all she had to do. DH likes a clean/tidy house as that is what he grew up with.

However he lived away from home, both in a house share and alone before we moved in together, this meant that he had to master the washing machine/hoover etc and he continues to do plenty of housework. TBH if he didn't our house would resemble a squat, I have a busy job and long commute and would never pick up after a man on a day to day basis.

The rule should be never to move in with a man who hasn't lived alone. Do not pick up where his mother left off, let him learn to look after himself first.

This man did live alone, but apparently has regressed. Mind, he did take his washing home to be washed by his mother every week.

@Atticusblame

• I was talking about GPs when I said “doctors” as they see everyone. And as a matter of fact, over half ARE women in the UK. Women became the majority of the GP workforce for the first time in 2014, and the proportion of GPs who are women has continued to rise. The future of general practice looks set to shift further towards women in the workforce, with GMC data published in 2015 showing that female GP trainees outnumbered their male counterparts by more than 2:1 across the UK, and that women were in the majority for all age groups under 50 in the general practice workforce.“

• So, It’s not work unless it’s paid? How lame that you so undervalue the reality of domestic work to say that it cannot be compared to other jobs because it’s not paid work.

• And we were talking about majority of ALL women doing more domestic work and I said, so what doesn’t need to be 50/50 as in does not need to be 50% of men and 50% of women doing majority of domestic work in their households for there to be equality and freedom. But instead you respond by twisting 50/50 to refer somehow to 50/50 to be about the division of chores between each couple. So what if some couples are 100/0, 0/100, 50/50, or anything in between? My point still stands it’s negotiable.

It IS a male/female thing, socialisation, and some wo/men still live it.

Nah, maybe for the baby boomer generation and before it WAS, but anyone born after 1955 nope not the case. Women’s lib changed all that. Any woman or man that thinks the old way is in an ever shrinking minority.

To pretend that mysogyny in the home isn't still a thing is pretty blind to what's going on. Handmaidens an' all.

So the U.K. is essentially Gilead? Is this a cry for help? We can bring you freedom 🇺🇸

Well, just look around and hear whats being said, and its not about the baby boomers either, whoever they are.

How can you actually even say that when clearly there are women saying otherwise, here and elsewhere

I say it because pre1955 women had no choice but to do the domestic work. Married women were even barred from having a job. Divorce wasn’t available to the common person, so a woman with a layabout husband was well and truly trapped.

Any situation today where a woman or man is doing all or an unfairly high share of the domestic work is doing so as the consequence of choices freely made. Even if they did not choose to do that much domestic work, they are choosing to stay in that relationship or marriage.

There is a huge difference between having choice and freedom, but not exercising it so you can be a martyr to having no freedom and no choice encoded in actual laws.

It’s why I get angry when people try and compare their shitty low paid job to “slave labor”. Such a big difference between the two that you can’t sit there and say it’s not hyperbole.

That’s what your Handmaid Tale and misogyny comment was- hyperbole.

pre1955 women had no choice but to do the domestic work. Married women were even barred from having a job.

Depending on your class. Middle and upper class women mostly didn't do the work themselves, though they were still in charge of the mental load by organising whoever came in to do it. Marriage bars mostly affected the professions. Married women have always worked where their families needed the money, and many working class women had no choice and were still expected to do all the housework.

If you meant GPs, you should have said GPs, Doctor. You seem absolutely determined to convince yourself that women and men are viewed equally by society now. They aren't. Society is still very much sexist and misogynistic. Pretending otherwise only serves to keep women down.

I say it because pre1955 women had no choice but to do the domestic work. Married women were even barred from having a job. As Ebearhug says, this is very much class dependent. Married women may have been barred from professions, but they were never barred from being cleaners, for example. Sexism did not disappear in 1955. It is very much alive and well, and women are still a far cry from achieving true equality.

Allcome you seem to be living in a bubble, and ignoring what women are actually saying.

You cannot force a man to share responsibility or do whats still considered by many as wife work, for men and women.

Thats not choice.

No, not everyone has choice. Many choices are shut down when a man behaves this way.

You seem to believe that mysogyny and handmaids no longer exist. Oh well.

All the while the rate at which men kill women remains constant. . How confusing, what can all that be about. Or doesn't that happen either. (Rhetorical, I know it does)

I would also add that women have always worked.

Whatever.
I think you’re the one in a bubble denying the progress and sacrifices that prior generations of women have done for us. It’s disgusting and ignorant to sit there crying your crocodile tears and acting like the majority of today’s 1st world women are oppressed “handmaids” and have no choices or freedoms.
As I said, no you cannot force a man to do domestic work, but neither can you force a woman. Any woman picking up slack is choosing to do that by staying in the relationship.
I never said misogyny does not exist, just that it is a tiny shrinking minority. And it is.
And as for men killing women, they kill other men and themselves at far higher rates. Three quarters of murder victims are men, not women.

CDC stats: Homicide rate for 2015 was 5.7 per 100,000 but the overall suicide rate in the U.S. is 13.5 per 100,000.

Men are 3x more likely to kill themselves than another person.

Even, most homicide victims are male. According to statista, there were 15,129 murders in the US in 2017. 11,862 of the victims were male and 3,222 were female. Men are 3.5x more likely to be a murder victim than women.

Ergo, men are 14x more likely to commit suicide than kill a woman.

Not exactly a crisis for women is it?

Why are you here bemoaning the lot of men?

Women are not killing men, is actually the point, and so is domestic violence, very much the point. Controlling women in domestic situations.

I saw the african tour highlighting the region in south africa where women and girls are routinely being killed, where women and girls are killed daily in domestic situations. To try to pretend there isn't a sex based agenda is shocking. Its been obvious for ever, everywhere (barring maybe a tribe or two somewhere).

You've come here to defend men, and trying to make it all about the men.

Women are roughly half the population.

Women are not killing men,but being killed by them.