To be baffled as to why women accept this?

[Atticusblame]

I went out for drinks with my friend last night. Her partner has just moved into her flat. I asked how it was going and she said he was very messy and didn't do any housework. She's now given him specific jobs which are his.

She said 'he is tidying up tonight too. He's just asked me to write a list of what needs doing and he said he'll get it done.'

I said nothing, but thought to myself why the fuck do so many women accept this, and actually think it's helpful? Why do they think men cannot see what needs doing as well as they do? Can't they see that it is just so the man gets away with not having to think about anything domestic?

It infuriates me is much. AIBU to think that women shouldn't accept that a man needs a list of housework?

Because we have a biological ticking clock and the game of love is basically supermarket sweep. Once you’ve grabbed your oversized banana you better run to the checkout quick sharp.

Bang on. I think a lot of relationship issues would be improved if people stopped falling for the myth that is romantic love, and admitted that it's really just a combination of sexual attraction, getting on well with someone and sharing the same values and life choices. Or at least that's what it should be!

Everyone has different priorities in life and sadly for many men, cleaning is not one.

as much as I like a tidy house so I don't have to even think about chores, don't you think the men in your description actually have it right?

When I read threads about posters spending their weekends, or at least 1 day of them, doing chores and cleaning... I do feel sorry for them. Isn't life too short? and my way means I can have the best of both world

Usually I'd agree with you entirely. But in this case, as he's moved into her home, I'd be inclined to think that there's a natural teething process and that he might be wanting to ensure he's being respectful of how she usually does things. And I'd be pleased that he's stepping up.

Of course, if in the next ew months all this doesn't become automatic and she's STILL having to give him a list and nudge every time she leaves the house, then yes, he's a prat.

At the end of my tether, I suggested a list, and OH turned it down flat,

I suggested he told me what housework he had done (he did do a little, eg wash the windows), and OH turned it down flat. Apparently l was suppose to notice it without being told.

I made a spreadsheet of chores and kept it updated showin whic member of our household had last done the chore. Colour coded and all! OH didn't feature much on the list, the 2 DC more so.

I wrote him an email explaing how the housework was making me depressed, and suggested that as I had run out of ideas, he could come up with a solution. He didn't reply or even mention it.

I divorced him. That solved my problem.

Think there's two separate issues:

1. yes it is pitiful that so many men consider that the "mental load" side of domestic life is the woman's domain: its probably down to the examples they have witnessed in their own homes as children. One would hope any man who is in his 30s or above now would be sufficiently aware that the responsibility falls to both partners but that's not always the case. If you end up living with someone like this there's a clear message that they shape up or ship out.

2. BUT, both partners don't always have the same standards. Some people put a premium on cleanliness but aren't as fussed about surface mess. My ex was really good at cooking and cleaning but absolutely appalling at any kind of life admin (scheduling bill payments, school-related admin, social life admin). So although technically he was pulling his weight on the home front, I felt dragged down by the fact that he felt this side of things wasn't his domain.

I think its probably a good idea when you move in with someone to sit down and set out a list of tasks and the deadline by which they need to be accomplished so everyone knows what the household necessities are and what the expectations are. I don't think the list thing is necessarily a bad idea if its a genuine attempt for him to understand what she needs of him. If, however, its her trying to badger him into pulling his weight it is a problem.

Do you notice when the tyres need changing on the car? Or when the gutters need cleaning? Would you be annoyed if your OH wanted them done before you did and complained if you hadn't done them (assuming housework equally shared)? Would you be happy for him to write you a list of such jobs to do?

We’re all really bad at prioritising housework and cleaning here, we’d rather be doing something else. So a rota works for us. We split according to abilities, talents and preferences.
DH has always done his fair share, and DS and DDs have understood about sharing the load that comes with having a home. But we are a family of list-makers, so I wouldn’t get annoyed about making one for DH, or if he made one for me.
Whatever works for your team.

What I'd do (together) is a list of what needs to be done by anyone, and then divvy it up according to who can or wants to do what. It shouldn't be the woman's responsibility, but it's often what we do.

It infuriated me that ex didn't see what needed doing. In his case it really was that he didn't give a shit about living in a horrific unhygienic mess.

I told him I didn't mind being project manager so long as he did his designated shitwork in good time and to a reasonable standard. You can guess how that worked out.

He's improved dramatically since I kicked him out. Does housework without prompting when visiting DD at mine - she's not going to grow up learning housework is women's work, at least.

So what in this scenario...

You stay with a friend for a week, in their place, because its near where you work that week...

Would you a) eat their food, that they prepared, then sit on your arse whilst they cleared it all away, and just chuck them some money to help towards the food bill?

Or b) offer to help prepare it? Or offer to prepare a couple of meals and buy the food for, and help clear it all away/wash/dry up/ put away?

It's the attitude surely?

I wouldn't feel comfortable with others serving me and seeing them do all the work. I also don't like being taken advantage of and left to do it all alone!!

My standards are vary. If I'm alone I have spates of clearing and cleaning, and leave things even the surface things, then do a big deep clean, if I'm sharing I don't feel its reasonable to leave my things for others to have to move, or wash up so they can use.

A DS is sharing at the moment, and the rule in the house is to clear everything after food prep/eating. Its irrelevant whether that's in an as you go manner or after eating, but it mean wash and clear away everything as it was before prepping. Includes any mess ledt on the floor/worktops, etc. One lad has just arrived new, had a trip home and walked away from some of his dishes.

Like a pp said, it really is like saying eff U to those who you left it to. They don't have any tolerance for someone who adds to their workload without question.

Are there still pink and blue jobs?

If I moved in with someone, I would be offering to put the hoover round, or give the bathroom the odd clean. Surely he must know you resent being treated like a skivvy, noone is that stupid.

I would give him one chance and then out if he can't notice or even offer. I just think it's measure of them overall.

I disagree a bit with the gutters and tyre examples though, that's stuff that only needs doing every once in a blue moon rather than daily drudgery. Funny how it's usually men get this sort of tasks and they usually don't also have a young child hanging off them.

Funny how it's usually men get this sort of task

Unless you don't have a man around and then you'll find it''s quite easy to sort put yourself.

YANBU. It's fucking ridiculous.

Does housework without prompting when visiting DD at mine

Well thats just weird

Just as bad as not doing any whilst actually living there, and odd that he now does housework in your home, or that he doesn't take DD and do his own thing with her at his home or somewhere else. It's not his home anymore, right?

Everyone has completely different ideas about what needs to be done, my partner is from hot country so is in habit of bins out every night in case if cock roaches but I’m more only when full... other day he said bath needs a scrub ( I couldn’t see it) but ignored black grout , yes women should stop being mothers and infantilising men but it takes a few weeks to blend and negotiate cleaning habits, I had friend who thought it was mans job to take bins out as that is what her dad always did

Like a pp said, it really is like saying eff U to those who you left it to. They don't have any tolerance for someone who adds to their workload without question.

but if you are talking about people in their HOME, it's not reasonable to expect them to treat the place as if they were guests!

to the poster Funny how it's usually men get this sort of tasks
the fact that you describe car tire and gutters as every once in a blue moon rather than daily drudgery will give you a clue why that is. You should check the tire pressure quite regularly for example...

Like a pp said, it really is like saying eff U to those who you left it to. They don't have any tolerance for someone who adds to their workload without question

but if you are talking about people in their HOME, it's not reasonable to expect them to treat the place as if they were guests!

Ugh? That wasn't what that was about. It was clearly not about guests, but treating others like skivvies, like its ok to leave them their work to do, when its not. The guy in the OP is not a guest either.

I dont get your bone with that statement.

You should check the tire pressure quite regularly for example...

How regularly? As regularly as washing up, laundry, hoovering, cooking, cleaning? I don't think so. And that's the point, isn't it? All too often,men get the 'Tadaah! Admire my diy skills!' jobs, or at least the infrequent but noticeable jobs. Whereas women get all the daily grind ones which nobody thanks them for or even notices unless they're not done.

My dh does little housework because he works much much more hours than me. He does cook pretty often (loves cooking) and is actually a tidy person. But we're on holiday this week. He's spent hours and hours redesigning the front garden. It's very hard work, will look great, and everyone will admire it and say how wonderful he is and how does he have the energy when he does such a stressful job. I've spent hours doing the stuff I normally do - supermarket shopping, cleaning, washing, tidying, cleaning. Boring, unimpressive, unnoticeable.

I check my tyre pressures every time I drive the cars. I look! Its easy to see if a tyre looks a bit lower than the others. Its hardly a job worthy of much any merit. When one looks like it needs a top up, I'll take the opportunity to check them all, or before any lengthy trips (say, more than an hour)

Whereas women get all the daily grind ones which nobody thanks them for or even notices unless they're not done.

you are the one who is making it into a man vs woman role though.

What happens if you don't food shop and cook? Eventually someone else will get hungry, surely.

Lazylinguist. I'd far rather do a garden redesign and pootle about in it here and there rather than the stuff of daily grind.

I get no joy from wiping cupboard shelves, or degreasing the oven, or hoovering carpet crevices for instance, I do notice, noone else does, and they are not merit-worthy jobs.

I do notice however, the more exacting my house chores are the more persnickety I get, and irked if mess is made, and so I can see how houses can end up being show home level of unlived-in look and uncomfortable feeling. I try to avoid that

Interestingly, how do you know whether or not your friend is a tidy freak and her partner has asked for a list because there isn’t any mess. Do you know who is BU here or are you just taking her word for it? I used to live with her. She isn't an obsessive, clean freak. She just wants the basics to be done - hoovering, dishes washed, clothes washed, kitchen & bathroom cleaned etc. She shouldn't have to write down: '1. Hoover 2. Wash dishes 3. Put bin out', because it's blatantly obvious to any thinking human. I imagine all of these jobs were done at his last flat without needing a list.

Do you notice when the tyres need changing on the car? Or when the gutters need cleaning? Why would I not look after my own car and gutters?

Would you be annoyed if your OH wanted them done before you did and complained if you hadn't done them (assuming housework equally shared)? Would you be happy for him to write you a list of such jobs to do? If I had an OH, I'd tell him to fuck off and shove it up his arse. It's irrelevant to my OP though, because in that case my friend's DP actually said 'just give me a list of chores you want doing.' Also, the things you've outlined are once in a blue moon type jobs. Not the clear jobs that need done regularly like the dishes and the hoovering.

Muppet Really? I dont know women who don't see what needs doing, in the main they have responsibility for their daily grind, whether they want it or not.

I am happy to run around after dc (to a point/age) but not fully grown men who want to know where their socks are, or that tie, etc.

The 'not seeing' is definitely a male 'trait', its like a childs.

Its hard to not tidy around for instance, because some of that tidying will be your own things! If you don't pick your own things up how will you know where they are?

There are clearly still blue and pink jobs in some households. So, yes, its about male/female distribution of daily grind, as it is in the OP

You are the one who is making it into a man vs woman role though. What happens if you don't food shop and cook? Eventually someone else will get hungry, surely.

Well yes. We kind of fell into these roles, as many couples do, when I went on maternity leave and then went part time when the dc were small. I was senior to him when we met. I'm still part time, so it makes sense for me to do most of the housework. I get in far earlier than him, so it makes sense for me to cook. I could go back to work full time, but he still wouldn't have as much time to do house stuff, as his senior role means longer hours (and far more money than I could earn). To be fair, I wouldn't swap places with him - I'd hate his job. I just feel a bit... undervalued.

I don't think anyone gets any kind of recognition for being able to look after themselves, cook, feed, and so on, and a single man in any job, no matter how senior would have to do that for himself,or get hired help for cleaning and even cooking maybe.

If someone else takes on another person's daily grind its going to be grinding!

I think in your case linguist your dh should out his hand in his pocket to contribute to his bit of the daily grind if he won't. Its a thankless task with someone using all the facilities and paying you via, idk, livingnin a bigger house/better lifestyle, bit it doesn't do anything for you self-esteem other than negatively.

He has recognition and acknowledgement through his work, responsibilities, status, financial entitlements, etc.

Its unbalanced. You need to not do skivvying for others.

If you were out the same hours as him would he then do an equal share? He should know that the relationship is out of balance and see what he says.

Maybe you need to step back from the house some, and try another work stream? Another part time or volunteer role so pursue something of interest? You don't have to do his job, he's doing that, but he wouldn't want you feel undervalued and taken for granted.