To be baffled as to why women accept this?

[Atticusblame]

I went out for drinks with my friend last night. Her partner has just moved into her flat. I asked how it was going and she said he was very messy and didn't do any housework. She's now given him specific jobs which are his.

She said 'he is tidying up tonight too. He's just asked me to write a list of what needs doing and he said he'll get it done.'

I said nothing, but thought to myself why the fuck do so many women accept this, and actually think it's helpful? Why do they think men cannot see what needs doing as well as they do? Can't they see that it is just so the man gets away with not having to think about anything domestic?

It infuriates me is much. AIBU to think that women shouldn't accept that a man needs a list of housework?

Mine asks me for a list and then doesn't do any of it, so if he does, then I guess you're ahead. Meh.

Yanbu op, and thank god I have one that doesn’t need to be told what to do, he just does it, because it needs doing and he’s a grown up.

I think it’s a generational thing that some men (and women) are happy to continue with

Not necessarily. I've had two husbands from the older generation and both were / are very good housekeepers, both very particular about doing all the household tasks. No direction needed. Personally I think younger men seem more useless .

Why? Because many kids grow up in houses where the mothers carry all the mental load and the fathers either do nothing and don’t even know how the washing machine works, or they are given random isolated tasks to do and think that’s sufficient.

On the plus side it’s early in their relationship so it’s much easier to say you need to share the mental load, you shouldn’t need me to tell you what needs doing. Easier now than later, anyway.

Show him this

www.workingmother.com/this-comic-perfectly-explains-mental-load-working-mothers-bear

I had one like that once, he went out with the bins that he never put out

Drives me insane. I have so many friends who let their husbands get away with it. These are women in their mid 30s!! I always tell them to sort their partners out and don’t moan about it if you are t going to do anything about it!!

I'm ashamed to admit that my DH is like this.
I was a SAHP for a few years, DH was away a lot with work and I gradually took over doing all the domestic stuff while DH did the garden. I'm trying now but not really succeeding.
I've learnt my lesson though, both DS's cook, clean and do their own laundry when they're at home.

This man moved into your friend"s flat--- her flat, where she had previously lived without him.

Maybe he is feeling his way; it takes a while to feel at home in someone else's space, and perhaps he is trying to ease in by doing things her way for a while.

Also, I agree that people have different standards. My husband has had to adapt to my messiness, as I just didn't change. He is more flexible in this than I am, but would naturally prefer a neater and cleaner house.

If he was her husband of 10 years, it would be pathetic, yes. But as he's just moved in, cut him some slack. Everyone has different standards and expectations and he doesn't know hers yet.

It depends what is in the list!
If it includes things like putting his dirty underpants in the washing basket then YANBU.
If this includes folding tea towels in a specific way, the YABU.

I think SOME stuff around the house is pretty obvious and will be the same for everyone.
Some people will have different ideas of what ‘tidy’ means and having a chat about it will always be helpful.
And then some people will need xxx to be done in a certain/at a certain time because of the way it fits in their routine (eg washing has to be done throughout the week as there is no dryer and no space in the house to dry 3 loads in one go).

If she is talking about the obvious stuff, then Yep, not a great start to moving in.
If he is willing to learn and to then take responsibility (aka she won’t need to give him a lost again because he will ‘know’), then good for him and her.

As a mother of three sons, I would argue that it’s how you bring them up. Start them young with housework and cooking. Make them take responsibility for themselves.

Things I insisted upon, from around age 11, include making them do their own pack up for school. I remember well my youngest having a sleepover and coming home the next day. He said “mum, you’ll never guess what? Jason’s mum did my pack up for school!” He then casually said “I’d rather do it myself because you do it just how you like it”.

They also had pets, which I never went near.

They did their own washing.

They all learned to cook.

Have just been thinking about this. I am a man by the way. I think in significant part its due to a (largely) subconscious consequence of men having observed their mothers (aunts, sisters etc) taking on the larger burden of housework and domestic management growing up... Accepting the concept of equality on a fairly superficial intellectual level takes maybe a few hours of reading. But conflicting social and cultural signals means that, in reality and in practice, real life transformation for many takes generations, if it ever occurs. My advice would be, as ever, try before you buy!

Mmm. I’m a messy cow and my other half is pretty tidy. He doesn’t put up with it...we don’t live together.We’ve been together 15 years.
TBH I don’t feel uncomfortable leaving a bit if washing up overnight whereas he does, or having shoes on inside ( both have hard flooring) or a messy fridge. He does so we don’t annoy each other by sharing.

I'm the project manager (to quote a PP) in our house, and tbh it does annoy me sometimes that I'm usually the only one to think of admin stuff, but dh pulls so much more than his weight housework- and childcare-wise that I consider it a fair trade-off. I almost never have to do the weekly shop (which I hate), for example, although I do contribute to lists if asked. I WFH, but he'll still come home from his FT OTH job and cook if I CBA. Basically we're both functional adults who play to our strengths, and if either of us thought our lot were unfair we'd be able to communicate that to the other and be heard.

I read on here that every time one of these men leaves a housework task (that he could or should reasonably do/is part of his fair share) to his wife or partner, or leaves her to clean up after him, he is basically saying 'fuck you' to her. I've used that with my teen/preteen sons during bouts of lazy domestic behaviour and it's definitely given them food for thought.

Some people have different standards 🤷

How many threads about women complaining or laughing at their partner because they do everything wrong - they clean the dishes wrong (how the fuck can you clean wrong, if they are clean, they are clean!), they deal with the kids wrong when they take them out for the day, they hang the laundry wrong - fair enough if it's a mess that needs double ironing, but using the wrong colour pegs? Seriously?

There are A LOT of women who love to martyr themselves and be the one to be houseproud and in charge. It's embarrassing to read.

The question is, what would partner do differently if they were living alone? If they would magically become clean, tidy and organised, yes they are taking the piss. If they are not bothered about the way the cushion are put on the sofa and wouldn't even bother with cushions in the first place, there you go.

I also agree that, when one is suddenly home full time, the nice thing to do is ask them a bit more.

I once had a flatshare where we initially had a rule that everyone should clean the kitchen once a week. Then my flatmate got very upset with me for never cleaning the kitchen - which confused me, because I'd cleaned religiously every time I was supposed to.

We went round in circles for a bit until he wrote out a list of what he meant by "clean the kitchen". It was about three times as long as my list and included a lot of things that I do every now and again.

Point is - people have different ideas of what tidying entails, it can be useful to spell it out to avoid misunderstanding.

YABU
People have different standards of tidiness and cleanliness. From complete slob to OCD level. These people are both male and female and not always is the female the one with the higher standard- although in this example it happens to be. I have seen couples with a male partner having the higher standard.

I think it is great that the partner with the lower standard is willing to not only live at the higher standard of their partner but to fully do their share of the extra work to maintain it. A list is one way to communicate how that work is divided up and is especially useful as a prioritization tool and memory jogger. It shows a degree of commitment imho.

I think the idea that anyone’s partner can just look around, see what needs to be done and just do it EXACTLY the way you would is romantic idealism. Did you have it with housemates? I don’t know anyone with a housemate where they never once had to have a talk about mess and cleaning because everyone in the house always looked around and did everything to everyone’s satisfaction all the time. It’s a romantic fantasy.

My DP is great around the house, does most of the cooking, hoovers, dusts, cleans the bathroom etc but when he's in the kitchen and has say..made himself a peanut butter sandwich or other type of transferable food he leaves marks on the fridge, dishwasher of said food.

It drives me mad! How can he not see it needs wiping?

I don't think this is a gender thing .All people have different standards and like to live in different way .
I'm very much tidy up once a week on my day off start at the top of the house and work your way down . DW tidies everyday

@Hydrogenbeatsoxygen
I agree with you. As i also stated in my comment, socialization plays a big part. But we should remember that socialization works both ways. We would also need to teach girls to put traits such as hardwork, attention to detail, and consideration, above traits such high earner, alpha male, social climber when considering a partner. In current society, both males and females still frequently put throwback assholes like Jacob Rees (never changed a nappy!) Mogg and Alexander Johnson on a pedestal. In real life, historically feminine traits are valued to an extent, but are still not rewarded financially or by social status. Everyone is complicit in this.

That makes a really good point, there are some women who really like to play the martyr, they just don’t accept different standards or ways of doing things, the number of threads on here saying ‘I can’t possibly leave the DC with my DH ... he wouldn’t know how to cope’ .

Calmfizz I think I love you

Who is raising these men to be like this though?

They can learn to do it. Anyone living with a soldier or ex soldier will tell you that.

I don't think it's a generational thing as my mum and dad have always shared household tasks, although they've had a cleaner as long as I can remember. But they both cook, do laundry, do the garden, tidy up etc. Their house is immaculate and when they come round my messy place, they both go around tidying up, which annoys me no end!

I hate housework. My house is usually untidy and I blitz clean once a week. I live alone with my kids and my ex-husband used to complain about the cleaning but now lives on his own in an absolute midden. My housework standards are low and I can't spend long there, the kids don't want to go. So maybe he really doesn't see the mess, who knows.

Surely the main thing is, however the housework is divided, that it's done in a way both parties are happy with. I know couples where the man looks after the cars, garden, bins, bills and the woman looks after cooking, housework and laundry and both are happy. When one partner isn't happy then obviously it needs discussion.

I once gave my XH a shopping list and he came home with half the shopping because he hadn’t thought to turn it over and read the back.

My current DH is a different breed, let me tell you