What to do with a wayward son at school

[deepflatflyer]

DS2 is nearly 13 / Year 8. He's very up and down / emotional / feisty / stroppy. Always been a bit like this but probably worse due to puberty. Disappointing behaviour at school but hard to know what's causing it (if anything). Can be good in some lessons, and downright disruptive and disrespectful in others. Seems to decide there are teachers / subjects he doesn't like and so makes little effort and can be rude/disruptive. Like this in primary school too but more noticeable now. Doesn't appear to be SO bad that he's ALWAYS in trouble, and it's annoying low-level disruption rather than fighting etc, but apparently he's overall one of the worst in his year (to put into perspective it's a school with very high levels of conduct/expectations and generally not too many problems of behaviour so he does stand out). Of course I talk to him at home every time there's an issue. I'm generally strict about screen time, homework, bedtimes etc. And I do withhold treats when he's in disgrace. I've had numerous discussions with his form teacher and head of year, both of whom are very nice, and I assure them that I fully support their attitude towards discipline and any action they decide to take.

I was a bit caught off guard earlier today at work to get an absolutely ranting English teacher on the phone. She'd clearly just come out of the lesson and was very upset and called me immediately. She had every reason to be cross as his behaviour had clearly been very much out of order. But I was at a loss as to what to say. Usually misdemeanours are dealt with by writing a note in his planner and being issued with a detention. She knows he's under the eye of his Head of Year (with my full support) so I think it might have been more appropriate to have logged things officially with him (which she will no doubt do as well). I just wasn't prepared for the rant. I didn't know what to say, as what could I say? When I pointed out that, although I entirely sympathise and support any actions she wanted to take (he's going to be excluded from her lessons), there wasn't a lot I could actually do myself other than remind him he' s out of order, especially not at that moment, she said 'well, can't you take his phone or playstation away'. I'm not sure it's her place to give me parenting tips, just as I wouldn't give her teaching tips. And, in any case, he doesn't have a phone, and he only uses the PS4 sparingly at weekends. Seemed a strange thing to say. Maybe I said a strange thing. What was she wanting me to say??

I tear my hair out with this child. I do my best. Clearly he's a problem. I worry about him. What more can I do? He's very bright so, actually, he'll probably do ok academically anyway, although he'll fall short of his potential. And he'll wind up many of his teachers in the meantime. And alienate the other kids (he does have mates, but he's generally not very popular and probably seen as a bit of an idiot). He needs to learn to just shut up and put up with the teachers/lessons he doesn't like as he'll face the same in the rest of life. Do I just turn a blind eye and leave him to get on with it?

Need to hear from some other parents of disruptive kids.

It can't be all my fault as my DS1 is an angel at school. Teachers joke that they can't possibly be related ....

I mean not calling a parent and basically venting that they have had a hard lesson with their child. There should be a process of dealing with children who become disruptive to the point of a teacher blowing steam at a parent and telling them to take tv/playstation away. If management haven't put in a strategy to allow them to do this, that's not the childs problem.

I don’t believe anyone should be ranting, but calling the parent is a key plank in most schools’ behaviour management strategies. It’s vital.

@seaweedandmarchingbands
If this is a behaviour management strategy then it should be discussed with parents, all parents before it's implement. It's clear from OP she has a good relationship with the school and if this was a tact they were taking it should have been discussed.

Personally, I dont see it being a good tactic. Some parents do all they can, they really do and getting daily phone calls from multiple teachers coukd do more harm than good. Making parents more angry with children wither it be frustration or embarrassment and children being on the receiving end of more criticism and punishment could cause children to lash out MORE in school, not less!

'There wasn't a lot you could do yourself'?!!
You're his parent and you need to step up and take action to try to improve this behaviour. The teacher was clearly upset and frustrated as your son is stopping at least 29 other kids from learning, and therefore stopping her doing her job. Her job is not to parent your child - step up and do something! Her suggestions for sanctions are valid - the detentions the school sets are clearly not having an impact, so you need to follow through at home with a sanction that will have more of an impact. You're his mum, you will know better than the teacher that sees him for a few hours a week what has an effect. She clearly does care about your son's progress as taking time out of her very busy day to call you shows you that she wants to help him improve.

If this is a behaviour management strategy then it should be discussed with parents, all parents before it's implement.

Don’t be silly. It’s part of our behaviour policy.

The vast majority of parents aren’t overwhelmed by phone calls home. The ones who are, then yes usually contact home is then co-ordinated by someone higher up to save teachers wasting endless time on fruitless calls.

Man OP's had some TERRIBLE comments. She sounds very reasonable and people are deliberately mean because they think she's an easy target thanks to her son's behaviour.

OP. If you're still reading this, I was like your son....the reason was that I was SO bored. I still maintain traditional education is not for some children.

I'm keeping a close eye on my youngest daughter who is 11 in case she's also like me (showing mild signs of it)

If she IS like me, she'll be removed and home educated.

Consider getting him onto Internet High. Talk to him as an equal and find out why he's behaving in this way.

Man you've got some serious nerve to even consider complaining about the teacher. I'd be frog marching him back in there to hand in a written apology and to have a meeting with me and her where he verbally apologises. And I'd be telling him I was going to check in with her every day to see that he was behaving himself and he damn well better be the best behaved student in there. I'd be bloody mortified to get a call like that. Maybe look for a parenting course?

Our problems were 40+ years ago. We just had to live with it. He has now had a successful career, and will be visiting tomorrow for my birthday.

If you’re still reading all this, here are my thoughts as a teacher of many bright, but disruptive and underachieving boys over the years. The important question is what you can do to stop him underachieving and disrupting the education of others from now on. I would bet he feels the comparison to his well behaved brother far more deeply than he lets on so thinking about ways to build his sense of identity is important. Absolutely ban comparisons at home and make sure school aren’t doing it. What is he successful at? I think someone up thread mentioned that sports/cadets/boxing type hobbies can be useful for giving boys a focus and discipline which makes them feel proud and hopefully then they don’t just identify as “the naughty brother” or “the less academic one” but as the “one who is really good at boxing” or whatever. I’ve seen lots of underachieving boys who learn discipline in sport or cadets and then apply it to their studies when they realise they need qualifications as they grow up a bit. Encourage him and show lots of interest in whatever his talents are. I would want to start talking to him about what he sees happening after GCSEs soon and have lots of conversations about what it’s like to do a levels/go to university/get a job. So many underachieving boys I see seem to have no sense of direction and no sense of why they’re at school learning and once they do start to see the bigger picture it really improves things.

I think at his age it can be really hard to change classroom habits without a lot of help. You can help by being strict, really do take away whatever he prizes and reward him with whatever he will be pleased to have. Ask for weekly emails from the teachers he has been in trouble with and his weekend can be dependent on what’s in those emails. He’ll thank you for it in the long run. At the same time, think about whether he’s being properly supported academically - is he messing around in particular lessons because he is embarrassed that he finds stuff hard? Or is it just lessons where he can get away with it because the teacher doesn’t have such strong classroom management? If it’s that he’s actually masking difficulty in English, a bit of tutoring/dyslexia assessments or just you doing some extra work with him might be worth considering.

You might also need to talk to school about moving classes to give him a fresh start if he is in a group where he is used to being a bit of a clown. It’s very hard to forge a new identity as a hard worker if all your friends see you as a joker. Think about who he is hanging out with outside of school - are they promoting the attitude to school and life you want for him? Get in there now and make it hard for him to spend time with kids if you think they’re not a helpful influence - it will be much harder in a year or two.

You may be doing all that already but I hope something in there is useful. Trying to get slightly disengaged bright boys to try harder at school has been a bit of a work project for me lately! Final thought though is that you mustn’t lower your expectations just because he’s not like his brother. He’ll take that as evidence he’s both allowed to get away with more and capable of less.

You have just described my 13 year old DS and he has dyslexia and has just been diagnosed with ASD. It may be worth a visit to the G.P to ask for their advice and potentially a referral to CAHMS. I agree with PP's that say there is always a reason for behaviour, something is driving his actions and it is far from being caused by 'bad parenting' suggested by other posters as you sound very level headed.

I think the fact that your other child isn't struggling and you presumably raised both of them with the same environment suggests more is going on. My DS 1 is a dream at school compared to DS 2 and they were raised in the same way.

Before my son was diagnosed with ASD, he was labelled in primary school as the 'bad child' and I would often get phone calls like this almost shouting what my son had done and accused me of not being strict enough despite me being compliant with everything they asked and doing my own sanctions at home. Once I started to try and get a diagnosis and stand up for my DS's right to an education by law, I was labelled as 'difficult'. This label followed my DS into high school and it turned out that the primary school hadn't told the secondary school about his dyslexia and he spent the first half of yr7 with no support. His behaviour deteriorated during this time and ultimately led to him having extremely low self esteem and his relationship with teachers broke down

Sorry for the rant but it is the experience of nearly every mum I've met with an ASD teenager. You are not alone in what you are experiencing and I think there is definitely something going on with your DS other than poor behaviour.

I would bet he feels the comparison to his well behaved brother

I absolutely agree with the PP and meant to mention this in my first reply.

I am the oldest sibling so never had to deal with this but my sister heard it far too many times at school. (I was a chronic over-achiever and people pleaser, no reflection on her academic merit at all. In fact she got better grades than me at GCSE and went on to do A levels and a Uni course, whereas I told academia to fuck off as soon as my GCSEs were done!)

But funnily enough. I went to the same secondary school that my mum and her siblings went to (large rural catchment area.) I never thought I looked much like my mum facially but on my 2nd or 3rd lesson with a teacher he came to my desk and asked me "Are you Betty Smith's daughter?" I said yes. He said "Huh. I taught her back in the day" and walked away. Didn't specifically pick on me in future but I would put my hand up and never be answered etc.

Asked my mum about him and she gave him a glowing gushing report about how idealistic he was and how he'd changed her world view. I guess 20 odd years had slightly blunted his enthusiasm! Next time I was in his class I said to him "oh I asked my mum Betty if she remembered you, she said you were one of her favourite teachers because you really believed in what you were saying". All of a sudden I'm his favourite pupil.

Teachers (and managers, etc) are human beings and will be swayed by human emotion.

Also, I don't get why being being 'ranted' at by teachers is deemed acceptable in any circumstance. Teaching is ultimately a job. My mum was a teacher so I get that it is a very stressful job but stress shouldn't interfere with professionalism. I work in the NHS and would never rant at a patient, even if they gave good reason and I was stressed to the hilt. Shouting at you isn't going to help either you or the school deap with your son's issues.

I've reread the OP to look for the reference to shouting but still can't see it.

Definition of 'ranting' according to the Oxford dictionary "theactionofspeaking, writing, orshouting in aloud,uncontrolled, orangryway, often sayingconfusedorsillythings:"

So does that mean you are ranting, given you are saying something silly? Ranting according to your own definition can mean speaking or shouting
I'm going to hazard a guess that if the teacher had actually shouted down the phone at the OP, she would have mentioned that.
I bet the teacher shouted when she came off the phone, though.

Don’t be silly. It’s part of our behaviour policy.

The vast majority of parents aren’t overwhelmed by phone calls home. The ones who are, then yes usually contact home is then co-ordinated by someone higher up to save teachers wasting endless time on fruitless calls.
We are talking about OP here though. And if my child school were changing their behaviour management strategy to involve calls home to parents then all parents and children for that matter should be made aware of this. This is clearly a new strategy (or rogue teacher who got too stressed out) as OP has never had a call home from a teacher before but had been in communication with DS head of year

Those saying they raised DC 2 the same as DC1.
Can they honestly say they have as many photos of DC2 developing as DC1.
DC1 is the wondrous being they have been blessed with - lots of pride(assuming they are advancing normally as a baby) , lots of family involvement, DC2 not so much. How it is.
There's a reason more CEOs are first born children.

How strange - I could have written this post myself! My ds13 is generally a good kid and likes school but we have a problem with English too! I get numerous phone calls from this teacher but no problems with any others. Apparently she expects complete silence in her lessons and my son cannot yet achieve this... He's had a detention every day this week from her. I don't really know how to deal with this as he gets good reports from his other teachers and his form tutor. I have told her I will support her sanctions but the phone calls are wearing a little thin - there's only so long I can keep saying the same thing. Anyway, no advice, just wanted you to know you are not alone in this!

What a shame you missed your window of opportunity in primary school, but you were probably busy saying 'what else can I do' then too.

What you should do, and should've done much earlier, is apply sanctions at home so uncomfortable that a teacher's threat to call home actually has teeth.

And here you are still not taking it seriously and kicking the can further down the road again.

IME this ends with you both snivelling in the Head's office because he's being permanently excluded, or him failing his GCSEs and moving on to a dead-end job whilst living with you until he's 30. Either way, you'll only really care when it's your problem but it'll be too late then.

Stop paying lip-service to supporting the school and actually do it.

Hello
Is there an ELSA in school or someone he can't talk to about how he feels ,what sets him off etc etc ....
He maybe needs to be given ways to deal with how he feels...time out cards ?
Look into his headspace....worth a try ???

I would say give him lots of attention - not shouting and warnings, but interest in him and where his skills lie, what subjects he is good at. It is very easy ime, if DC1 sales through school, to assume DC2 will and probably they DO get less attention.
Sounds like he doesn't like his teacher. But he needs to understand that he won't like everyone he comes across in life.

“I will get bashed for this but this is what teachers have signed up for. Not abuse not violence but dealing with young adults who are all different and deal with things in their own way, some of them are disruptive in the process.“

Sorry, but no, teachers did not sign up for disruption and abuse. They signed up to impart subject knowledge and help their pupils achieve the best they can while learning how to behave themselves and get on with others.

Traditional discipline, and a collegiate responsibility from both teaching and managerial staff to maintain good behaviour from pupils, was taken off the agenda in 1997. It is impossible to teach classes of children if there is no discipline. When it became clear that low and high level disruption were going to become the norm good, ( expensive) experienced teachers left in droves and the next generation of good teachers was put off joining the profession.

Parents’ believing that teachers should put up with abuse and bad behaviour are now part of the problem.

This is clearly a new strategy (or rogue teacher who got too stressed out) as OP has never had a call home from a teacher before but had been in communication with DS head of year

Incredibly unlikely that this is a new policy. I expect this teacher isn't the first OP has heard from. Every school I have worked in uses phone calls home as a behaviour management strategy. The way the OP has worded the phone call sounds like the teacher is at the end of her tether. Phone calls from individual teachers are useful and really help with the attitude of "oh it's just you picking on my child". It means parents can see how their child behaves in all lessons.

As for the OP, I'm just reading a lot of excuses as to why there are no consequences at home.

He's very bright so, actually, he'll probably do ok academically anyway, although he'll fall short of his potential. And he'll wind up many of his teachers in the meantime

Good for him. His life will be sorted. Meanwhile, potentially other good and experienced teachers throw in the towel because he’s the one that pushed them over the edge. And who knows how many kids in the same class won’t reach their potential because of your son’s constant disruption.

Suggest looking at other schools 'he might be happier at' - that should put the wind up him

Oh dear. Schools are nothing but glad when difficult children - who cost time and money - disappear off to bother someone else. Then their time can be better spent supporting children who really need it.

Keep supporting the school and make it clear. You are supporting them. Get him on report and link privileges ( that he cares about) each evening to how he has performed at school
The teacher was wrong to ring you like that
Get family support is there an uncle cousin that can have a pep talk, there is a big “brother” charity that gives boys mentors from industry? Find a aspirational goal/ dream job to give him a focus to work towards
Good luck

This is clearly a new strategy (or rogue teacher who got too stressed out) as OP has never had a call home from a teacher before but had been in communication with DS head of year

As posters have repeatedly pointed out.

Its not a new strategy, its been used for many years.

And It would be interesting to know which direction the contact with the HoY was.