Can I change a naturally selfish child?

[Wheredidigowrongggggg]

I have two daughters, 8 and 9. My eldest has always been quite insular, she doesn’t have naturally great social skills. She is learning through her mistakes and is showing signs of occasional empathy, but it’s clearly an effort. I have seen her walk right past a hurt, crying child without even seeing them. It’s like it doesn’t register.

My youngest is naturally empathetic. Her nursery reports from pre-talking used say ‘X gave her toy to (spoilt) crying kid who wanted it off her’ - I paraphrase. Natural empathy, naturally kind and thoughtful, very popular. But the polarity is extreme between the girls.

We have 2 family ipads the kids are allowed to use for an hour before we get up. This is a real treat as they don’t have them during the week. This morning one hadn’t been charged. So my eldest sat with the one that worked and my youngest tried to charge the other one while she used it but with little success. Youngest ‘didn’t say’ she wanted to share the working iPad so eldest used it exclusively. Youngest did something else. When we got up we obviously noticed.

Had a conversation with each separately. To eldest : why did you not think to share the iPad that worked? Can you see that your behaviour is like your friend Y who you complain about? How does Y make you feel when she’s thoughtless/says unkind things/won’t share? Why do you do that to your sister? Explained she has to try more as it doesn’t come naturally. (Sadly this is a constant refrain)

I had a chat with the youngest about speaking up, pointing out unfairness etc. But she’d rather not argue and would rather do something else then get into an argument over an iPad.

This happens all the time. Biggest piece of cake, going first, best seat - eldest will automatically take it without thinking. This grates on me as I would never do this. Our home life does not model this kind of behaviour either. This is an innate character trait she was born with. How do I teach my eldest to be more thoughtful/kind/nicer to people? Is it even possible? I love her fiercely, and feel more protective of her than I do my youngest. The selfishness is a real fragility that I know will be a burden to her in life. But I hate that there are times when I really don’t like her because she is so naturally selfish. That makes me ache. Can she change? Aibu to want her to change? Not for me, but because usually being kind and thoughtful is the right thing to do?

I think you’re labelling one child bad and one child good. I know you’re trying to be careful not to do that but it’s coming grouch anyway with your “selfish” / “generous” labels.

Try relabelling them. The older child is “focused” in this case on playing the game, on other occasions on whatever she’s doing that makes her not think about feeding the animals (is this actually her chore?)

The younger child is “conflict avoidant” she’ll give a toy away to avoid drama. I’m often like this too and trying to work on it, it’s not a great trait.

So the first needs to think outside herself a bit more and the second needs to think of solutions that aren’t just backing off and not advocating for herself.

No idea where that ‘grouch’ came from, was supposed to read ‘across’.

I agree with Madison. I am selfish when it comes to myself. But on a wider societal level I’m definitely not - I’m a socialist, for instance. I’d like a crackdown on BTL landlords and inheritance abolished - yes, at the expense of myself. How many people bleating on about empathy on here would think nothing of buying a second, third or fourth home if they could afford it, sending their kids to private school or talking in a disparaging manner about living near social housing? None of those things are empathetic or good for society

Eldest sounds pretty normal to me. She sounds introverted not selfish. Perhaps she walks past crying children because it doesn't occur to her that she should stop and intervene because if she is upset she wants to be left alone and therefore that seems like the kind thing to do? Or because it makes her feel uncomfortable to involve herself in an emotionally-charged situation and she doesn't feel like she has the confidence/ability to know what to say or do to help, so she feels like not potentially making it worse is the kind thing to do?

Labelling her as selfish in your mind is also making you see things differently and see selfish things in her behaviour all of the time when you may otherwise not notice. it amplifies things and makes it seem like a normal person has a problem when you focus on things like that so much and it's going to lead to a situation where you're judging and criticising all of her behaviour all of the time and it will start to feel like you're hounding her. Even if you don't call her selfish outright, if you're watching her every interaction and follow up with questions about it all of the time, she's not coming away with a motivation for change, she's coming away with the message that nothing she does is good enough. THat's not' going to help her become anything other than more introverted and perhaps socially anxious too.

i was a very quiet introverted child and my mum's attempsts to make me be lively and interactive and talkative didn't make me any of those things, but they did make me feel like i wasn't good enough in social settings and want to avoid being social

You are right it is a balance but you need to teach both of your daughters that. But you also seem to see the unselfish/people pleasing aspects as being the good side of the balance and the selfish side as being bad.

Whereas both of your daughters need to learn that they can be both good and bad depending on context and in many ways the conflict avoidant aspects are actually far more negative

I think that generosity of spirit is Innate. I can see this within my family and family of origin. The people who are now generous adults were always generous children. The selfish ones remain selfish.
I saw these characteristics in my own children from a really young age ( I had one of each)

SlowDown76mph
How does your eldest respond when you ask her 'why'?
In similar situations does she learn when the same experience is encountered? For example, will she now think to share the ipad if it happens again?
Is she able to generalise an experience like this to a similar situation and respond more kindly and with insight..?
The reason I ask, is to get you to consider whether she is actually 'selfish'. Or, if she is unable to put herself in another's place, i.e. she lacks 'theory of mind' and is unable, not unwilling, to do so.

This ^ , please read the last paragraph, she may be unable not unwilling to behave in the way you wish.

Although the caveat to the paragraph above about behaving differently when presented with the same situation is that women with autism will often learn the "correct" way to behave , it doesnt always mean their feelings marry up with the actions.
You say you dont think she has empathy in one sentence and but then are perplexed by how much empathy she shows in other situations with the animals, this can be very common in girls and women with autism.

The ipad situation is a red herring that you are hyperfocusing on because of the rest of the "selfish" behaviour, most kids when only having it for an hour arent going to share it if left to themselves.

Wheredidigowrongggggg
Ravens - nothing so severe as to need a diagnosis. She flies at school. She’s now got friends. I’m sure she’s somewhere on a spectrum but aren’t we all?

Please, stop perpetuating the lie that everyone is one the spectrum. Its both offensive and untrue. If you truly believe this then hopefully this thread causes you to see that you are wrong and prompts you to educate yourself further.
Having friends does not mean you do not need an autism diagnosis to help you get access to help, particularly if by your own admission you are saying you think "she is on the spectrum" (whatever your understanding of this is)

You say there was a similar dynamic with your own sister who was very selfish with you . Autism runs in families, now of course no one can diagnose your daughter over the internet and no one should and you may feel im pushing the autism aspect but again, only because you yourself have said in this thread that you think shes on the spectrum . Its interesting that you yourself seem to have a lack of empathy towards your daughters behaviour.

If you've considered that one daughter is autistic, have you considered they both may be, but that ones behaviour is just more socially acceptable. Some autistic girls learn to be an extremely good girl in order to socially fit in.

Your frustration and disappointment with your older daughter is coming across loud and clear and you've admitted that you frequently dislike her because she does not behave in the way you want. I know that you've said you are being frank and forthright because you are on an anonymous forum and completely hide this from her but believe me your daughter knows you feel this way about her , no matter how hard you may think you have hidden your feelings.
Perhaps its time to get your daughter and yourself some active and professional help.

she isn’t someone I would like if she weren’t my child. How awful is that?

That is so sad :( so so sad :( I really hope she doesn't pick up on that.

I know you will not always connect instantly with your children, but try to find her strengths.

Sit and read with her at night, watch her sleeping, take her out for some mummy and daughter days without your other DC.

She needs you to see her strengths, to realise she's only 9 and doing what normal 9 year olds do.

She needa you to like her. Try to see her as an individual. Try and recognise her qualities. And never, ever, compare her to her sibling. It is the worst thing in the world to be the 'bad' sibling. She needs to know you love her equally.

I am a high functioning autistic female @PookieDo

I notice the OP not addressing all the people saying 'Your kid is autistic', and responding to most other replies.

If you think a child can only start to be socially conditioned when they are 1 or verbal, then you are mistaken. There is evidence that social conditioning starts from birth.
Child A gives a toy to a randomly crying child. They receive positive re-enforcement, "good girl" positive tone of voice (which even my cats understand), maybe a hug etc. So child A learns that this kind of behaviour results in a reward.
Child B does the same but doesn't associate the reward with the action, or doesn't even really feel rewarded by the praise. Or maybe the parent misses the good behaviour and it is not praised. So the behaviour is not reinforced.
Even more child C is behind in the theory of mind, doesn't fully recognise that people exist as separate individuals. So is unlikely to react to a crying child - or will hit them to shut them up like me switching off the radio. Now maybe 6 months or a year later they do try the "giving a toy" but by then their parent has already labelled them as "selfish" and it is not reinforced.

@iwashappyonce I think the OP has already have said she may be on the spectrum, but aren't we all. So she is aware of peoples diagnosis.

OP as others have said, I would be careful so as to not make her feel there is something "wrong" with her and also just ensure your youngest is happy to stand up herself if she feels she needs to.

@iwashappyonce the op isn’t taking on board any of the suggestions to build up the confidence of dd2 either.

I notice the OP not addressing all the people saying 'Your kid is autistic', and responding to most other replies.

I don’t think I would either.

My dd1 is quite a lot like you describe your dd1. She’s 14, so a lot older, but still had a lot of those traits at home. She’s not particularly empathetic, at home she’d definitely take the biggest slice of cake or the best seat. However, out in the world she actually pretty nice now. She’s popular with her peers and teachers, and helps with a lot of younger children’s dance clubs, where the little kids love her. Are you sure your dd1 isn’t just like this at home, but I’d generally ok in other situations?

I don’t think dd1 would give up the only working iPad to let dd2 have a go of her own accord even now (dd2 probably would let her sister take a turn), but I don’t think this makes her a terrible person. She just doesn’t naturally think of others the way her sister does (DP is the same). She’s quite introverted and awkward in social situations, but on the whole is a good kid, who sticks to the rules, tries hard and achieves well. Her sister is more social and friendly, but I’m certain she will bring more trouble to my door than her sister.

Just encourage kindness where possible, but don’t brand your young dd is selfish. She’s just different to her sister. She may be a bit unthinking, but it doesn’t sound as if she goes out of her way to be unkind (I haven’t read the whole thread, so apologies if this is wrong). Don’t be too hard on her, nobodies perfect.

I am analysing this trait in me and can see the logic in ensuring that being kind and considerate does not mean at the expense of oneself. I will review my parenting With this in mind.

@butterybiscuitbasic The op has acknowledged how being a people pleaser at your own expense (like her youngest) can effect ones life and is going to review her parenting style, what more possibly could she do !!

Ooh plastic patty I’m glad I was otherwise engaged in self righteous cuntery whilst you were posting

Really? I'm sorry you missed me. People helpfully quoted my post - but not the most important bits. Which were ace, but you can find them in other people's posts so nothing lost.

Have a lovely evening. Please be kind to your elder daughter.

nothing so severe as to need a diagnosis. She flies at school. She’s now got friends. I’m sure she’s somewhere on a spectrum but aren’t we all?

May have been said already but no, we're not. You are either autistic or you're not 🤦‍♀️

You are either autistic or you're not 🤦‍♀️

This should be diagnosed through the correct channels by trained professionals.

I have ASD and this sounds like me as a child, and now. I try hard to remember to share etc.

No problems at school, was a high flyer, so that doesn't mean anything.

Autism is often missed in girls as it does not always present itself as obviously as in boys. I was diagnosed as a young adult.

I think this is an avenue you need to explore further, for all your sakes.

It's not a case of us 'all being on the spectrum to some extent' it really doesn't work like that.

Would you judge her behaviour so harshly if she were a boy?

OP why should she give up the IPAD though. Presumably she came in found an IPAD did her thing.

Your other daughter came in and then finding it didnt work did something else.

Why should either of them have done something differently.

Now one thing you havent answered is why your DD didnt approach you to say it wasnt working - is it that your time in the morning is sacrosanct and you cannot be approach (which surely goes against the selfless vibe you try and portray) or was she worried that you would get up and then the time would be over. Again going against your generous selfless image of yourself

I don't know, OP, in my experience people who are only out for themselves often do very well in business etc. It can be an advantage to not care who you're stepping on on your way up.

As for your youngest, is she being empathetic or just scared of confrontation?

Please try not to compare them with each other. That way lies trouble. Accept that one may need more time to learn empathy, it doesn't come naturally to everyone but she'll get there in the end. Model the behaviour you want her to learn and let her absorb it naturally - no lectures!