Can I change a naturally selfish child?

[Wheredidigowrongggggg]

I have two daughters, 8 and 9. My eldest has always been quite insular, she doesn’t have naturally great social skills. She is learning through her mistakes and is showing signs of occasional empathy, but it’s clearly an effort. I have seen her walk right past a hurt, crying child without even seeing them. It’s like it doesn’t register.

My youngest is naturally empathetic. Her nursery reports from pre-talking used say ‘X gave her toy to (spoilt) crying kid who wanted it off her’ - I paraphrase. Natural empathy, naturally kind and thoughtful, very popular. But the polarity is extreme between the girls.

We have 2 family ipads the kids are allowed to use for an hour before we get up. This is a real treat as they don’t have them during the week. This morning one hadn’t been charged. So my eldest sat with the one that worked and my youngest tried to charge the other one while she used it but with little success. Youngest ‘didn’t say’ she wanted to share the working iPad so eldest used it exclusively. Youngest did something else. When we got up we obviously noticed.

Had a conversation with each separately. To eldest : why did you not think to share the iPad that worked? Can you see that your behaviour is like your friend Y who you complain about? How does Y make you feel when she’s thoughtless/says unkind things/won’t share? Why do you do that to your sister? Explained she has to try more as it doesn’t come naturally. (Sadly this is a constant refrain)

I had a chat with the youngest about speaking up, pointing out unfairness etc. But she’d rather not argue and would rather do something else then get into an argument over an iPad.

This happens all the time. Biggest piece of cake, going first, best seat - eldest will automatically take it without thinking. This grates on me as I would never do this. Our home life does not model this kind of behaviour either. This is an innate character trait she was born with. How do I teach my eldest to be more thoughtful/kind/nicer to people? Is it even possible? I love her fiercely, and feel more protective of her than I do my youngest. The selfishness is a real fragility that I know will be a burden to her in life. But I hate that there are times when I really don’t like her because she is so naturally selfish. That makes me ache. Can she change? Aibu to want her to change? Not for me, but because usually being kind and thoughtful is the right thing to do?

Does she put her wants ahead of peoples needs??

I think there are 3 concepts to address:
1- fairness and sharing
2- needs and wants.
3- equality.

I think if she puts her wants ahead of her sisters needs she might b selfish/self centred. Or she doesn’t understand difference between desires and needs.

If she understands that people r equal and no one is more important than anyone except with effort and hard work can attain better things... then she should understand that no one is “entitled” for the bigger slice of cake.

If she understands both above and sees an opportunity for a big slice of cake, then it’s important to learn that lack of sharing is lack of caring.. and that you would like for those you love what you would like for yourself. So not to be second best but to have curtesy to divide fairly or offer generously or ask or at times offer and at times compromise .. and not just assume it’s a competition all the time for materialistic things.

I donno maybe stories, discussions and so on could help. Also make sure the younger one isn’t getting more recognition for being the “nicer” one to the detriment of the first.

Lastly, I do think charity work and volunteering accompanied by a parent isn’t too soon for a 9 year old. I certainly learnt a lot of empathy when life naturally threw me in situations where I saw for myself how much an act of altruism or generousity made all the difference in someone else life.

Freespirit that is a most constructive and thoughtful post. I will take all those ideas and run wit them, starting with food bank Collection today. Awesome.

I have been flamed for posting about my child before but here goes: this is my DD1’s personality/behaviour and she is 17 and I have tried everything to get her to be more actively empathetic and to think of others. In the end I did teach my DD2 to stand up for herself and Although this ended in arguments, I just disliked watching DD1 completely dominate DD2.
My DD1 is very emotionally immature for her age and although I have tried to get support for her in the past, she’s very resistant to this. My DD May mature and grow out of this but I am unsure whether she really will, and I don’t know what else I can do. I’ve ended up doing a lot of peace keeping and picking my battles and now have an entitled young adult who wants the world to revolve around them.

Saying that, she seems very tough and resilient (stubborn) 😂 so I think perhaps she just needs to find her own way in life, and this may well not be working closely with other people as an adult and won’t get shit on. I ended up thinking it was better to empower DD2 than try to disempower DD1

@iwashappyonce

Try getting anyone to listen to you that you think your DD has autism when she is high functioning. She has a diagnosis of GAD and scored very highly in ADHD tests but she’s resistant and we were sent on our merry way for her to only end up with 3 Useful GCSE’s

Molly - it’s really not learned. My youngest did this from way before 18 months, before being verbal. She’d stop for a crying child, she’d give her toy to someone who was crying. It was an innate quality. My mum says I was the same.

Ooh plastic patty I’m glad I was otherwise engaged in self righteous cuntery whilst you were posting.

Is your daughters’ father (or adult partner) in the picture, OP? What are they like?

She’d stop for a crying child, she’d give her toy to someone who was crying. It was an innate quality.

She was imitating behaviour she had seen other children be rewarded for.

It might be worth trying to teach some of the expected behaviour explicitly; ie. when there's cake you offer to serve everyone else first and you don't take a bigger slice for yourself. Her internal understanding of other people's thinking/feelings will develop as she gets older, so for now help her learn how to appear to be kind, as a matter of manners/ politeness/social skills for interacting with others.

This is basically it. It’s interesting that you think you wouldn’t automatically take the most appealing slice of cake, the best seats, if all else was equal.

I don’t analyse my behaviour, and I’m pretty empathetic and polite and kind. But left to my own devices - if there was no social overlay to direct me - I would choose the slice of cake I most wanted, or the seat with the best view. I don’t, because I’m conditioned to consider others and because I understand social etiquette.

I suspect if someone else chooses the biggest slice your DD thinks that’s fair enough if they got there first? Or does she make a fuss about it? One is merely decisive and assertive, the other is selfish.

Freitas - that’s really interesting because I am one of two girls with the same 18 month age gap as mine, and my sister was also selfish but also quite nasty to me. I didn’t see my parents challenging the selfishness and meanness and, as a consequence, I don’t want to let it fly with my girls either. I want them to be kind to each other and respect each other even though they are very different.

I am listening to the conditioning points though and the ‘it’s selfish to want people to think you’re kind’ stuff, it’s making me think! But it’s defintely not gender, we are both equalities lawyers, emancipation on every level runs in our blood.

As well as the Foodbank idea, what about planning a Reverse Advent Calendar?
The idea is that each day of advent, you collect an item of food, clothing, toy etc and put it in a basket to take to a local cause.
You could do this together as a family, and also maybe switch some of the items into 'gestures' such as making a Christmas card for a neighbour who lives alone, doing 5 mins of litter picking, decorating a bauble to give to their teacher etc.

Lovely ideas there, thank you. Love th resvere advent calendar one.

Butchy - Husband is most certainly around. He is away a lot. He is more selfish than me for sure but not sure how or if this would present to the kids. He is kind and generous and gentle with us all though, and doesn’t approve of the ‘elder sibling entitlement to better’ syndrome despite being the eldest himself. He’s the eldest And I’m the youngest though so together we make a good team for understanding them both and as a team, and we counter the others natural bias. Even he says ‘that’s not me, I was never that extreme’.

To the person who said ‘wouldn’t you take the best chair/biggest piece - no, never. Not really analysed why as it’s just a reflex/instinct but I suppose I think it’s kind, polite

Then that I’m not sure this is about selfishness. That’s about how people view you, people pleasing, martyr complexes, and a whole host of other issues as well then. It is not inherently “kind” to always put yourself last. And while you may think it has nothing to do with gender, boys are simply not socialized to believe that kindness is always putting themselves last.

But it’s defintely not gender, we are both equalities lawyers, emancipation on every level runs in our blood.

Right, yes. As an equalities lawyer then, you probably know even more about how gender bias is engrained in us from an unbelievably early age. I understand you say you’d raise your children the same as you are doing right now regardless of their gender, and that’s good, but you were socialized to believe being a people pleaser (you say your mother says you were exactly like your younger daughter) is a kindness, and you’re starting to actively dislike your daughter who doesn’t follow that pattern, which IS gender-based, so...

You need to really consider what you’re doing to your two daughters. Maybe your older daughter could use more empathy. But empathy is not putting yourself last. Maybe she could use more kindness. But kindness is not always giving up your needs for the needs of others. Women have suffered from being raised with these misunderstandings in a way that (most) men haven’t.

Right yes, I don’t accept that my traits or those of my daughter are due to gender biased. Being a people pleaser isn’t an innately female quality. Sure historically more women than men had to people please just to get by in a paternalistic society, but I don’t accept that this is why my daughter and I are this way. Any more than I accept that she gave her toy at a year old to another child who was crying because she had learned that this behaviour was rewarded. It wasn’t. It’s how she is wired. It happened from tiny wee.

However, I am analysing this trait in me and can see the logic in ensuring that being kind and considerate does not mean at the expense of oneself. I will review my parenting With this in mind. Am glad i made this post.

In all honesty I think you need to teach DD2 to be more selfish. DD1 is clearly great at looking out for herself. If no one says "I'd like the ipad" why should she think someone else might want it. I don't mean to be rude but you're being a bit sexist and trying to raise doormat girl children instead of seeing the advantage of DD1's behaviour in school and the workplace. Boys grow into men who ask outright for payrises and other things that advantage them and girls don't because they're conditioned not to make waves and to always think of others even when others don't need thinking of. If DD2 wants the biggest cake etc she needs to learn people in the real world won't give it to her unless she asks and there's no magical reward for being a doormat.

Sometimes it just takes maturity. I was a selfish sod. I'm pretty kind now although I am trying to learn how not to notice, again. tbh, being a selfish sod is a lot easier. There simply isn't that much to get upset about. Totally agree that it's admirable if someone can let criticism roll off them & not be overly upsetting.

Having empathy means you notice upsetting things all the time. (injustice, hurt people, unfairness) It's exhausting. It doesn't make my world a better place.

I have some similar dynamics with 2 of my boys. Am working on the younger one standing up for self but also not letting opinions of the older one seem so important.

Any more than I accept that she gave her toy at a year old to another child who was crying because she had learned that this behaviour was rewarded.

She’d never, ever seen any other children sharing? Never?

Sorry X post with your reflection on this aspect of the problem.

I don’t know, is it really the worst thing ever that she is a bit selfish? I am an only child and was a bit spoilt, I am definitely quite a selfish person and I don’t feel it negatively affects my life. If you don’t put yourself first, who else is going to?

I am definitely quite a selfish person and I don’t feel it negatively affects my life.. But how does it affect the lives of those around you? That’s the whole point.

I am definitely quite a selfish person and I don’t feel it negatively affects my life.

And the award for unconscious irony goes to...

But how does it affect the lives of those around you? That’s the whole point.. No idea, nobody has ever said ‘Oh Madison, your selfishness is ruining my life’ and I have a decent amount of close friends, so 🤷🏻‍♀️

No idea, nobody has ever said ‘Oh Madison, your selfishness is ruining my life’ and I have a decent amount of close friends, so 🤷🏻‍♀️

And there we have it: an advert for selfishness.

I think this is the point. You can have a perfectly good career, and arguably a pleasant life, while being a total selfish fucker. I just don’t want to bring up someone like that. I want my children to be rounded, thoughtful contributors to society, not people who take the biggest slice of life just because it’s there. I accept it’s a balance but I know you can be a hard nosed pay rise negotiator and have an exemplary career without being selfish. You can see those traits around you and do just as good a job as them without them.

Couldn't have children so please ignore if you wish. My only experience is that I was a child many years ago.

Totally agree with Oliversmumsarmy - I would be spending more time and energy on teaching your DD2 how not to be a people pleasing walkover. It will do her no favours in adult life.

When I was a child if there were any treats going my parents held my sister and I back while all the other parents pushed their children forward - resulting in us getting no treats. It was a long, hard lesson to learn but I taught myself it was not a bad thing to push forward with everyone else. Much easier for your DD2 to learn that as a child rather than an adult.