To think Upfield Global (Flora marg) can get stuffed for calling mumsnet a hate site?

[Toorahtoorahaye]

No more Flora for me, they’ve just announced they’re having nothing to do with the hate site mumsnet. mobile.twitter.com/StopFundingHate/status/1182647264046669824

Thanks Justine, MNHQ - great statements. Good for you, not backing down

Well done for not backing down.

whatthings

I understand and I am uncomfortable with misgendering as well (didn’t see that particular thread) - but I thought misgendering was against talk guidelines and would be deleted?

The problem is trans activists set the bar for being “transphobic” so ridiculously low that it’s very hard to have a sensible conversation about it.

Thanks so much for supporting free speech and this important debate, JustineMumsnet and MNHQ.

The problem is trans activists set the bar for being “transphobic” so ridiculously low that it’s very hard to have a sensible conversation about it.

Absolutely. Saying that human beings can't change sex is transphobic, FFS. Anything but fawning compliance is attacked.

Sounds like they are totally woke this year. Unless you're an orang-utan obviously, in which case you can budge your gangly orange arse over there as we'll be needing this bit of forest to exploit thank you very much.

And as for Twitter it's clear they think we should stick to prams and formula. And if that doesn't reek of rank misogyny maybe your nose isn't working?

This would be a very good reason not to buy it if I hadn't already thrown the last 'new butterier' tub away because it was so disgusting.

I can see their point. I find it really hard to recognise my women friends (who were told they were male from birth and have since corrected that) in the vitriol on here.

At the same time, I have problems with self-identification. I think the discussion here does not sufficiently differentiate, and lacks nuance. It is that which allows radical transgender activists (more truly identified as men who want the privilege of both genders IMO) to recruit trans-women to their cause.

I think the discussion here does not sufficiently differentiate, and lacks nuance

I'm all ears.

Flora tastes like shit

Ok, so this is back up - strange, looks like mumsnet is announcing a call to arms.

The tone of threads on any topic around trans people is consistently and persistently hostile and prejudiced towards trans people in general.

Maybe - due to what is happening to the definition and meaning of woman/girl/female and all that female folk are losing - and tbh, have you seen the insults, threats and hate often thrown at women from some transfolk and their allies?

They only go after women or haven’t you noticed?

Yeah, but a lot of these comments on fb are from women... I keep waiting for the terrifying backlash, but usually it goes unchallenged until someone, fairly politely says that it isn't really ok to say x, y or z. Just what I've seen on fb, but I appreciate that is a limited snapshot.

Anyway, Flora are dicks and their product is disgusting. I am actually quite relieved to have a good excuse not to buy it 🤢🤢🤢.

It's particularly ridiculous that they can't even point to any specific problem they have with MN. WTAF?

@JustineMumsnet

Well dang! That's a nicely worded statement.

and tbh, have you seen the insults, threats and hate often thrown at women from some transfolk and their allies?

Very fair point. I never see people who think mumsnet is transphobic calling out abuse and threats to gender critical people, most recently the “POV if you’re a T* in my mentions” hashtag where people posed with swords and baseball bats.

And it's comments like this that demonstrate the divide:

who were told they were male from birth and have since corrected that

I find that just as offensive as people find "transwomen are men".

So, what now?

Using examples of bad behaviour that happens elsewhere, by a small number of high profile activists and trouble makers, to justify and excuse wholesale hostility and prejudice here on mn is such a bollocks defence.

Actual trolls and shit stirrers are dealt with really well by mods, and quickly banned.

Meanwhile mn posters who are not activists, not condoning anything extreme, not “silencing women”, are regularly hounded out of FWR, with the justification and excuse of “oh but we get so many trolls, we treat everyone who disagrees with us with suspicion”.

The denial that there is a problem is really worrying too.

See previous posts, including on this thread, that claim transphobia is so devalued as to be made meaningless. Posters saying they are happy to be called transphobic and bigoted as it now holds no meaning to them.

Or that they are not transphobic because they are not “phobic” or actually afraid of trans people. How utterly ridiculous.

Put any other “phobic” in the place of transphobic and see how that reads to you.

And yes, I am still on mn, because I’ve been on mn for over a decade, and a lot of mn is marvellous. And also because I refuse to allow anti trans rhetoric and propaganda to go unchallenged on the main boards.

So I keep reporting, and keep challenging. Because mn IS important and influential, and MNHQ need to hear from their posters who are not happy about the prevailing tone.

Respectful, civil discussion. Great. Let’s do that. Saying that that’s what’s happening on mn at this point is unrealistic and unhelpful, and it’s making MNHQ look very foolish right now in the public eye.

Great statement Justine!

whatthings

I didn't say transphobia was meaningless. I said the bar was set ridiculously low. Which it is. I cannot think of any challenge to the Stonewall party line which someone could publicly make on Twitter and have people politely engaging in response without getting called transphobic and t*fy in response, even something such as let’s discuss the science before deciding whether or not TW should compete in women's sports. It’s unacceptable. People banging on the windows of women’s place meetings, that seemed to be perfectly acceptable unless you can show me where it is called out.

Your first paragraph is an absolutely woeful take. The whole tenor of this discussion is that people who are calling mumsnet hateful and lobbying people not to work with it because of that are the same people who have no problem at all with petitioning universities to fire gender critical staff. So its not a case of whataboutery, it’s evidence that the problem people have with MN isn’t “hate”, it’s women having a different opinion about their own rights. Because otherwise the total blindness to far more hateful behaviour over this issue is inexplicable.

You talk about lack of acknowledgement of a problem here - could you clarify if you acknowledge that the trans rights movement generally (obviously not everybody individually) as a problem with hostility and abuse towards gender critical women?

Thank you JustineMumsnet and MNHQ
Someone, somewhere has to stand up for women

There is disrespect and incivility on both sides.

I’m not an activist, I don’t hang out with activists, I don’t support or condone bad or abusive behaviour from anyone.

Like many mners, I hang out on mn a lot.

What I see here is a lot of “well so and so on the TRA side did this terrible and awful thing, so it’s fine for us to behave in this awful way towards trans people, and here, take a look again at this awful thing this one trans person did, since this thread is related to a random trans person who has done nothing remotely similar.”

There are plenty of real actual mners, not involved in deplatforming, campaigning, banging on windows or other activism etc, who object to the way trans people are referred to and discussed in THIS site.

Plenty of people for whom it has nothing whatever to do with silencing women, but everything to do with challenging what we perceive to be increasing transphobia here on THIS site.

Shocked. No more flora for us.

The whole tenor of this discussion is that people who are calling mumsnet hateful and lobbying people not to work with it because of that are the same people who have no problem at all with petitioning universities to fire gender critical staff

This is what I have been seeing over the last few years.

Also, the main person calling mumsnet hateful and lobbying to remove sponsors is the person who instigated the first court case for 'transphobia' against someone who is trans, despite not being trans herself.

(case thrown out of court, by the way)

There is disrespect and incivility on both sides

I agree. But there’s only really threats of violence and intimidation on one side, and that’s important to acknowledge.

I haven’t seen threads like you describe where people are nasty about a trans person (presumably for being trans) because of the actions of another random trans person. If that happens then that’s appalling, but I have never seen it.

The problem with your argument though is that this is a thread about Flora refusing to work with Mumsnet because it is apparently hateful. It’s not about Mumsnet in a vacuum and if some people here are dicks. It’s about why Mumsnet is singled out.

Therefore of course it is relevant that the particular individual who complained to Flora is frequently over Twitter calling people “T*s”, and recently supported the “peaceful protest” at women’s place UK where attendees described feeling frightened and intimidated (and having seen a video, I can see why).

That wouldn’t excuse any transphobia on Mumsnet, but it totally undermines the basis of floras decision because presumably they’ve decided Mumsnet is hateful but not the “other side”