To think Upfield Global (Flora marg) can get stuffed for calling mumsnet a hate site?

[Toorahtoorahaye]

No more Flora for me, they’ve just announced they’re having nothing to do with the hate site mumsnet. mobile.twitter.com/StopFundingHate/status/1182647264046669824

Anyone with a penis is considerably more likely than anyone without to commit rape and sexual offences. That is the basis for safety related sex differentiation. Gender is irrelevant. So transwomen are no more likely than other men to commit offences, but they are much more likely than other women to do so.

I'm thrilled that Mumsnet won't be allowing such a sexist, misogynistic company to advertise or engage with users on their site.

I buy Flora but I won't anymore.

Far from being narrow, the MNHQ definition of transphobia is laughably broad. Factphobic if anything.

Psh. I'm sure I read that Margarine is just one process from being technically a plastic. I wouldn't want that nasty tasting shit anyway. Real Butter or nothing thanks.

there's no need for me to link

On the contrary, the argument as I understand it is usually that transphobic posts are deleted so there is no evidence (obviously this is actually evidence that MNHQ do not tolerate transphobia, but whatever)

Your argument seems to be that transphobia is left to stand but we just can't see it.

So show us. Otherwise I call bullshit.

That was quick. [wow]

They are usually on the ball, the leaving posts to stand for ages bit that a poster said upthread hasnt been my experience...on FWR at any rate

Though interestingly another poster has said that they have reported what they believe to be transphobic posts and Mumsnet didn’t delete

Which suggests...obviously 😀....that transphobia is in the eye of the beholder

Which is why threads full of ‘ this is transphobic’ and ‘prove it’ are never going to be settled

if it gets reported in the first place which isn't always the case when threads become echo chambers on certain boards

but also -

It's not at all the same as Twitter. On Twitter I can choose whom to follow. So I don't follow transphobic twitter accounts. Simple.

Is mumsnet an echo chamber or not? Sort yourselves out!

Do you understand what an echo chamber is Wotcha? It's somewhere like Twitter where you can just block any opinions you don't want to hear, or where an algorithm decides which opinions you'll be presented with in the first place. MN is not like that and that's its strength.

If you disagree with what people are saying then just post and say so and explain why. It can be tough if you're a minority voice on a thread - I know, I've posted on vaping and smoking threads since 2013 and have frequently been in a minority of one - but if you have a decent argument beyond 'you're all so mean and transphobic', and you can back up your argument, then experience tells me you will at least be taken seriously and if people still don't agree with you they will have to put up decent arguments of their own or they will look like fools.

If all you have is appeals to female socialisation ('don't be mean') or vague insinuations of transphobia without ever providing examples then of course that won't go down well. The vast majority of us started out as 'trans allies' and continued way beyond the point where it ceased to make any sense, precisely because we were afraid of being mean or transphobic, or appearing to be. It should come as no surprise that we see straight through those tactics now.

@marfisa

I will resist the patriarchy in every way I can but I do not see trans women as reinforcing patriarchy or as being more likely than anyone else to commit rape and sexual assault.

This is false. They’re not more likely. They’re AS likely as men, which makes sense when you think about it. I don’t want to increase the risk of my being assaulted or sexually assaulted by sharing close, intimate spaces with people who are more likely to do this. I also don’t want these crimes listed as being carried out by women as it’s not true and makes it harder to tackle.

Trans women also reinforce gender stereotypes, which stem from the patriarchy. The idea you can ‘feel’ like a woman is a ridiculous one when you break it down and ask which one? We’re all so wonderfully diverse and different that it’s an impossible thing to state.

It’s difficult, as on an individual level, most trans women aren’t doing women harm. But being made to include males and with that the erosion of our rights, is horrifying for a lot of women. We haven’t had many rights for that long, and damn sure I won’t be giving them up without a real scrap.

Which is why threads full of ‘ this is transphobic’ and ‘prove it’ are never going to be settled

Well they could be Rufus, if examples were forthcoming we could have a proper discussion.

Fuck Flora

It’s back!

I’m anticipating Sunday papers perhaps covering this issue tomorrow, as several journalists are sniffing around the Twitter thread.

“I can’t believe it’s not Misogyny.”

To the people who think Mumsnet is transphobic: I presume you've never been on a twitter, Facebook, Daily Mail comments section? There are genuinely transphobic comments there. Funnily enough, Flora isn't too bothered about those sites either. I wonder why?

I cant stand marg and habe never heard of any of their other brands so, bothered?

Any chance of an Aibu on this with a vote?

The problem is that everyone says they'll boycott these products now but most probably won't at all. I don't think they'll see any impact tbh, which is infuriating. I've never bought their products apart for the occasional Stork for baking but certainly won't anymore. Dropping my biannual Stork purchase will make no difference at all sadly.

I'd love to have been a fly on the wall when this decision was taken though.

YANBU. Woke numpties.

I am often in the FWR board and I have only once seen a genuinely transphobic comment which I reported and it was deleted. A couple of minutes on non-female dominated SM or forums will find hordes of transphobic, misogynistic, racist, homophobic etc comments and people don't seem overly concerned about it.
I find it interesting that it is the forum that is almost exclusively female that is being criticised and boycotted by companies.

So what do all these 'mumsnet is sooo transphobic even if I can't provide any evidence to show it' posters have to say about Helen Islan, aka Mimmymum, taking a transwoman to court for 'transphobia' and causing him (he prefers correct sex pronouns) enormous distress? A case, which let us not forget was thrown out by a judge who lifted a ban on naming Islan due to her outing her own 'trans' child.

Do tell what exactly you are doing about Heelen Islan's transphobia?

So this thread is back. Glad the scold's bridle has been removed Mumsnet!

Fyi all - we have just given this comment to the Sunday papers...

"It's disappointing that Flora have bowed to pressure from a handful of activists on Twitter - particularly as Flora didn't raise any objections to any actual content currently on the Mumsnet site. 

We can see why an advertiser might want to avoid controversy but it's crystal clear from the sheer volume of discussions about this topic that parents need a place online to discuss these complex issues around gender self-id and the rapidly growing number of children presenting as gender dysmorphic. 

We feel it's the right thing to do to facilitate that debate (whilst ensuring it remains respectful) even though some would wish to censor it. Mumsnet has turned down hundreds of thousands of pounds of advertising over the years from companies which we feel don't make parents' lives easier, so we're well-used to putting purpose before profit. 

I do think in the end consumers will value companies which show a bit of backbone.”

Thanks Justine and thanks for the Twitter statement too.

I don’t always agree with TG’s but try my best to stay inside them, as well as turning my adblocker off for MN. Because I really do appreciate the space you provide where I learn so much from other women.

You missed ‘and several posters (and their mums) have said that they think it tastes like candle wax’

@LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD

You missed ‘and several posters (and their mums) have said that they think it tastes like candle wax’