How shockingly ignorant Remain supporters are.

[ScreamingLadySutch]

Sorry, guys, but you are.

In the past week I have been told we must Remain because BJ is a dictator by one, and by another because it is easier to travel .

There seems to be no knowledge of our history and institutions, legal, political, sovereign and economic considerations, the history etc of Europe and what is really going on.

Labour and the trade unions were wholly against entry, and the Conservatives pushed it through by stealth and deceit. That crusty old socialist Tony Benn was prophetic on his remarks about what it meant. Now, today, that is reversed. Fascinating, really.

For a good grounding on the roots of the issue (Maastricht was going to result in Brexit it was completely inevitable), this documentary is quite useful:

@Dongdingdong Have you even read that article? The chancellor an MP says that. If you actually read the Treasury forecast it models the negative impact based on various assumptions i.e. if Britain operates under World Trade rules, etc.
Sure MPs said all types of stuff that was not true. "Experts" did not.

@DBML

I don’t want to live in a country where I’m invited to have a meaningless say.

So, again, how do you square this noble philosophy with the reality of living in a representative democracy?

In this referendum, every vote mattered, regardless of constituency. I suspect that is why the turnout was high - because people who usually didn't vote because their vote never mattered voted now.

Indeed. Interestingly if the referendum had been held under the FPTP system, Leave would have won by a far bigger margin.

doesn’t mean it’s ok to suddenly flout democracy to meet an agenda

Democracy is NOT being flouted. Our representatives in Parliament are debating it.

Johnson and Rees Mogg voted AGAINST the current withdrawal agreement. They themselves flouted the will of the people, didn't they?

@chomalungma

I can’t argue with that.

But the damage is done and people were given a ‘once in a generation’ opportunity to make change. It has to be upheld.

@chomalungma
Because the same situation can look very different to people with different perspectives.

Yes, that was exactly my point!!!

Incidentally I have read the Financial Times to get most of my Brexit news. They have consistently said that leaving will lead to an economic downturn and may lead to a recession.

You do realise that the FT is a notably remain-leaning paper, right?

@DontMakeMeShushYou

The referendum was held differently. The government stated that the outcome would be honoured. Nothing else matters.

Sure MPs said all types of stuff that was not true. "Experts" did not.

@jennymanara ha ha! Do you not think George Osborne was informed and briefed by a team of experts when he said that? Or do you think he just plucked it out of thin air? And actually, I think it’s fair to say that the chancellor of the exchequer should be an “expert” on the economy. It is their job after all!

Good grief somebody's got off the pot to stir it, what a goady thread

"Please can you give a list of which specific regulations you would like to remove and what you would replace them with? "

I have already - harmonisation and convergence - pretty much covers it. These render our economies expensive and uncompetitive in the face of economies (India, China, USA) that don't have to deal with this regulation.

I remember being in Strasbourg and being handed a thick stack of the regulations being passed that day. The MEPs were like the cat in Chinese restaurants, arm going up and down. Two of the things I remember on it - the cut size of orange peel for marmalade and the size of aggregate in tarmac.

Ireland and the backstop was a magnificent wheeze that really clogged up the works. If UK doesn't put up a border, who is going to do the Irish border? Not the Irish, so who?

Did you not notice when the new softened Mr Junker indicated it might not be such a problem after all?
And Jacob Rees Mogg (lets not start the personal comments, whether you like it or not he is sharp) successfully trapped Guy Verhofstadt by pointing out that the rules are what the EU bureaucrats say they are:

A question that many Leavers who post on such threads fail to answer.

There is a withdrawal agreement agreed with the EU.

If Parliament voted to pass that, would you be happy?
It is leaving the EU with a deal. So we would have left the EU.

The will of the people would have been upheld.

I expect people who feel strongly about leaving will continue to argue and fight to leave.
People who wish to remain will argue and fight to remain.
Our country has been well and truly divided.
I respect each and every one of your opinions and stand by my own.
Thank you for the polite debate.

I am pro business.

Corporate taxes give us jobs and PAYS for everything. Elon Musk:

@EntropyRising Yes because the facts support remaining. One of my friends has to write financial papers giving advice around Brexit that has to be neutral in terms of remain or leave. A kind of like pros and cons. She said everyone working on those papers found it very hard to come up with economic pros to leave.
The only economic pros are that some Hedge Fund managers will make a lot of money by us leaving if we do so on the 31st of October. And that some companies will avoid the tax evasion regulation the EU is bringing in next year. Oh and that some companies may be able to avoid the strict EU health and safety legislation. That may benefit some individual companies, but it does not benefit the British economy as a whole.

Op if you want a proper debate fine but why insult people?

I am a remainer but i do not have any issue with leavers who have a decent argument unlike my dear old dad who voted leave "because he didnt think it would happen 🤦‍♀️"

Interestingly i have been listening to witness history podcasts about the EU, Denmark voting not to join the EU and the implementing of the Maastricht Treaty. Was very interesting listening to them as you heard both sides and i got a bit of history i didnt know.

While you have a point op that economics played a part in both world wars, its not the sole cause and it is not solely Britains fault.

Britains isolationist stance caused a lot of tensions and caused treaties with different European countries and treaties within treaties as everyone had their own agenda.

It is never good to be isolationist, it feels like history is repeating itself (racism, extremism, one up man ship) i hope i am wrong and that Brexit turns out to be a good thing as i don't want to think of the consequences if not.

Quoting Elon Musk, but still no comments about the good Friday agreement...

@Dongdingdong Really??? The Chancellor has quoted selectively from the Treasury report. That is what MPs do. Quote selectively for political purposes. And no, MPs are not experts. They are briefed by experts and then they decide how to present that and whether to ignore it or not.

The government stated that the outcome would be honoured. Nothing else matters

And there’s your issue.

Simply the “word” of a government means nothing to democracy. Unless you’re suggesting democracy is flouted every time a government suggests “we’ll do x if you elect us” and then fail to do so?

Corporate taxes give us jobs and PAYS for everything

And where does the money come from for corporations to function?

Like roads, infrastructure, education, healthcare, defence......

All public sector that provides a functioning country and gives workers money to spend on corporations...

A system which means a vast majority of the voting electorate never get what they vote for

The vast majority didn't vote. Those who voted, voted to Leave, for the most part. What's your solution? To ignore the 52% in favour of the 48%? To hold another referendum in the unlikely hope that voters choose to remain next time? Best of three perhaps?

@DBML

So when you said you didn't want to live in a country where you were invited to have a meaningless say because democracy is sacrosanct, you actually meant "I want my voice heard this one time. I don't really care the rest of the time."
OK.

Not that you’re making a blanket statement and suggesting ALL think the same thing

Embarrassing.

God I hate the term 'goady'. Nowt wrong with being a bit controversial.

However, the OP is accusing people and organisations of ignorance, bias, no knowledge of history etc...

Yet has not shown one iota of insight into their own heavily entrenched views. Terms such as 'over- regulation', 'German economic dominance' etc are highly indicative of her hard-line, nationalistic free market views.

Ironically, those are two paradigms that history has emphatically shown to be wrong.

Carry on though OP, you're a relic of a long- dead philosophy.

If I am honest, I think one of the things that unites leavers is they think Britain is more important on the economic world stage than we really are.