How shockingly ignorant Remain supporters are.

[ScreamingLadySutch]

Sorry, guys, but you are.

In the past week I have been told we must Remain because BJ is a dictator by one, and by another because it is easier to travel .

There seems to be no knowledge of our history and institutions, legal, political, sovereign and economic considerations, the history etc of Europe and what is really going on.

Labour and the trade unions were wholly against entry, and the Conservatives pushed it through by stealth and deceit. That crusty old socialist Tony Benn was prophetic on his remarks about what it meant. Now, today, that is reversed. Fascinating, really.

For a good grounding on the roots of the issue (Maastricht was going to result in Brexit it was completely inevitable), this documentary is quite useful:

What's ignorant is ignoring every independent projection (and even the governments own) that we will be worse off In Every way imaginable and just ploughing on regardless.

The problem is, a lot of these so-called experts said we’d be plunged into a deep recession the day after the referendum if Leave won. That didn’t happen. I think people have lost faith in the experts.

The vote should never have happened. Such a complex issue should never have been put to a simple majority alongside propoganda that was lies.

OP
What is your solution for Northern Ireland? How do plan to ensure the GFA is not compromised.

Please don’t suggest the Schrodinger’s cat Border that is simultaneously a hard border and not a hard border that the PM is currently proposing.

Mind bending mental gymnastics op.

Our country is about to be marched off the cliff by a hard right authoritarian cabal that will destroy our economy. A cabal that disrespects the law and is encouraging violent uprising if it’s ends are not achieved. They will themselves become incredibly rich in the process whilst there is widespread misery as the price rises, job losses and food shortages kick in. Many lives will be lost, the troubles in NI will be reignited and vital medicine will soon not be there. The NHS will be butchered and available only to those who are rich. Food and environmental standard will plummet as will workers rights. Entire sectors of the economy will vanish.

But democracy will survive, eh?

That will be the reality and any person wishing that on his country is the opposite of a patriot. You are actively willing our destruction. Perhaps you personally stand to gain from this.

Personally I think we do have to leave now. But we can not get as good a deal as we had under the EU. And we can not threaten peace in NI. Our economy is going to suffer.

‘Its because Britain has signalled they are walking away from over regulation and protectionism! Especially w regard to IT and the 4th industrial revolution. The headlines today was Eu v Facebook.’

This comment does not fill me with cheer. It appears to suggest that rather than being governed by a democratically elected parliament, however good/bad, we should be thankful that we will shortly be ruled over by giant corporations headed by a very wealthy few, with no responsibility, who will dismantle the framework of financial regulation, overturn safety legislation and generally turn us all into drones as they become ever wealthier.

Within the EU we have more clout to combat this rush towards the lcd. On our own we will be a prime target, and desperate.

It is companies like these that we have to thank for the gig economy, zero hours etc.

And please answer the q about the GFA. People could actually die if there is no resolution to the Irish border question. Happy about that? A risk worth taking? Or is this just remained hyperbole?

@Dongdingdong No the experts did not say that. Sure lose faith in experts if you twist what was actually said, or maybe did not understand what was said?

So you can't actually explain what you mean by that deliberately vague comment? Ok then

Oh I can I was just fairly disbelieving that an adult (I’m assuming) found it tricky.

Our democracy is ever-evolving (constantly changing if you understand that better because we live in a representative not a direct democracy. A system which means a vast majority of the voting electorate never get what they vote for.

and by another because it is easier to travel

There are plenty of reasons why Remainers want to remain though. And the above I think is a perfectly good reason to want to stay in the EU. If I had family in mainland Europe or a job that involves travelling their often (or could afford a fucking holiday) I would worry about that too.

And it is frightening that Boris Johnson is prime minister. I’m sure most, if not all, leaders would make a pigs ear out of Brexit, but Boris is probably one of the very worst choices. He’s a self serving, bigoted monster.

Thank you to everyone who responded to me. Some interesting points.

I stand by my black and white interpretation of democracy. Knowing that when I bother to turn up for a vote it matters, is very important to me. I don’t want to live in a country where I’m invited to have a meaningless say.

If we Brexit, we will be fine. The world will not implode and ports have assured us that they will continue to run efficiently. I doubt many people will even notice much of a difference.

So to clarify

• Op was only being rude to get people to debate.

• Op wants facts, but not those facts, or that one. Then goes off on a tangent about other unrelated points.

• And all remainers are ignorant

Is that the general gist of it all?

DBML - good heavens, have you never noticed that we have never had a government run the country that was axtually elected by the majority of the people in the country, or even the majority of voters?! What's all this absolute bollocks about "majority rule"? We live in a representative democracy. Referendums are not supposed to be legally binding. And normally, the British people are entitled to change their minds as to how they want to vote every few years in an election, anyway. Normally, the British people also do not get over simplified, binary choices, either, what them having the potential to end up like this one... Why should the British people have an unwholesome mess, disapproved of by the majority of their elected representatives, pushed through by an undemocratic minority government?

@JacquesHammer "your an idiot" - was deliberate. Thanks for the grammar lesson anyhow, which I agree with.

Incidentally I have read the Financial Times to get most of my Brexit news. They have consistently said that leaving will lead to an economic downturn and may lead to a recession.

Also I remember what legislation was like before the EU. There are in a few cases I think too much red tape, but lots has been hugely beneficial.

The government need to get it done soon, as 17.4m people are waiting for their vote to mean something

The current withdrawal agreement means something.

Maybe Johnson should bring that back and MPs can vote on it.

And there you go, Brexit is delivered.

Are Leave voters happy with that?

@DBML NO ONE who understands Brexit has said the world will implode. It is not a zombie apocalypse. But yes it will have a negative affect on our economy.

@Dongdingdong No the experts did not say that. Sure lose faith in experts if you twist what was actually said, or maybe did not understand what was said?

You clearly have a very short memory @jennymanara or are rather lacking in understanding yourself.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36355564

@chomalungma The reason they are not happy with that is they think we will get a much better deal than we had in the EU. There is a delusional lack of reality in some people's thinking.

Aahhh, those tolerant leavers! Like the parents of a child in my class who told their son that his classmates with parents who had come from Poland were going to have to "go back to their own country now"!

Ghost most leavers I know couldn't give a shiny shit about the GFA

what page are we on? Oh, yes, page 5 already, 112 messages in minutes.

I love empirical evidence. So much better than being dim, don't you think?

We? My settings suggest there are still only 2 pages of comments in this thread so far. Be careful with that empirical evidence for fear it will make you look dim.

I know highly educated people on both sides of this debate, and certainly don't think all leavers or all remainers are idiots, as usual with social media you are presented with the most vocal though, not the most considered people.

Amen to that.

@screamingladysutch. Attacking people when they question what you are telling them is not engaging. You started this thread knowing full well that you where going to stir the pot. If you're not prepared to listen to arguments from the other side then how can this be a debate?

Oxford English Dictionary
Debate..an argument or a discussion expressing different opinions.

I shall await my insult with baited breath.

Knowing that when I bother to turn up for a vote it matters, is very important to me. I don’t want to live in a country where I’m invited to have a meaningless say

When most people normally vote, unless they live in a constituency where they support the winning party, their vote doesn't usually count. If you live in a swing constituency, then you get targeted. Your vote matters. Otherwise your views are ignored. I strongly suspect that's why Northern places have been ignored by the Conservatives because they are traditional Labour supporting places.

In this referendum, every vote mattered, regardless of constituency. I suspect that is why the turnout was high - because people who usually didn't vote because their vote never mattered voted now.

I do think we need to look at our whole voting system, as well as our unwritten constitution, the Monarchy and the House of Lords.

A can of worms has been opened.

@Walkaround

Just because our voting system is rubbish, doesn’t mean it’s ok to suddenly flout democracy to meet an agenda.

Be careful with that empirical evidence for fear it will make you look dim

TBF - she could be on 25 per page and you could be on 100 per page.

Because the same situation can look very different to people with different perspectives.