How shockingly ignorant Remain supporters are.

[ScreamingLadySutch]

Sorry, guys, but you are.

In the past week I have been told we must Remain because BJ is a dictator by one, and by another because it is easier to travel .

There seems to be no knowledge of our history and institutions, legal, political, sovereign and economic considerations, the history etc of Europe and what is really going on.

Labour and the trade unions were wholly against entry, and the Conservatives pushed it through by stealth and deceit. That crusty old socialist Tony Benn was prophetic on his remarks about what it meant. Now, today, that is reversed. Fascinating, really.

For a good grounding on the roots of the issue (Maastricht was going to result in Brexit it was completely inevitable), this documentary is quite useful:

I just hope that if we do leave the EU, then those people who voted to leave because they were at the bottom of the heap and wanted a change see some benefit. I fear they won't. That is likely but here's the thing. Some people will benefit and not just the JR Mogg's of this world.
It's inevitable

I just hope that if we do leave the EU, then those people who voted to leave because they were at the bottom of the heap and wanted a change see some benefit. I fear they won't.

They won’t. And if they voted leave because things couldn’t get any worse, in the event of a no deal Brexit, I anticipate they will be proved very wrong very quickly. I’m afraid I won’t be feeling sorry for them.

The “liberal elite” narrative being spouted about remainers is interesting too. Do people really think the likes of BJ and JRM aren’t part of the “elite” themselves? Do people really think they have the best interests of the country, including leave voters, at heart?

I am not well off. Yes employment has increased and wages have increased. My personal experience is that wages have went down a lot in my sector and unemployment is high.

Remainers want a rerun of the 2016 referendum as they claim all the facts were not available to the public.

However, it was the Remain campaign strategy to bombard the electorate with scaremongering and warnings of economic disaster that lost them the referendum in the first place. It was lies, it was Project Fear. It pissed people off, people like me who were not voting for economic reasons, but for political ones.

To think that all that matters, all that people care about is the economy, is a very capitalist, very neo-Liberal attitude, and for me it sums up the EU. The EU is very pro-big business and pro-globalisation. It is corporatist and federalist. It's also rigid, would not contemplate reasonable reforms suggested by David Cameron. Merkel and Macron's smug attitude alienated a lot of people at that time and helped make up their minds to Vote Leave. Because the argument that 'we can reform it from within' was shown to be ill-informed and wrong. The behemoth cannot be reformed.

The economy is fundamental to everything. Your country will not be successful in any way if the economy goes to shit. Like it or not money makes the world go round. That’s why I voted the way I did in the last 2 referendums.

Either he has changed his mind or he cannot be too critical of the approach the SC took.

I think his position has been oversimplified on this thread. He seems to be in support of their decision. I’m not sure you can take a lecture before politics totally went to shit as a statement on his position now.

www.scottishlegal.com/article/lord-sumption-judiciary-stepped-in-to-curtail-johnson-s-disgraceful-constitutional-abuse

There’s an article he wrote in the Times too, but it’s behind a paywall.

Do people really think the likes of BJ and JRM aren’t part of the “elite” themselves? Do people really think they have the best interests of the country, including leave voters, at heart?

No they don't. But that's yet another ad hominem argument.

OK. All remainers are middle class people with second homes. Sorry - mansions.All Leavers are put-upon proles that the elites want to disenfranchise. I said nothing of the kind

"God I wish both sides would stop attacking the intelligence of the other."

Couldn't agree more.

I voted remain but completely respect leave voters and wouldn't go around calling them ignorant. Everyone is entitled to their own political views and ironically I think it's ignorant of the op to fail to see that.

My friend who recently qualified as a doctor voted remain. She has over a decade of law education and is a highly successful solicitor. She has a PhD which she gained from a very good university and is very engaged in politics. She must be ignorant

You might not @PierreBezukov but some people actually do think they’re just standing up for the will of the people

He seems to be in support of their decision

Yes he's been quite nuanced but on balance he is supportive because it reined in BJ's constitutional abuse. Fair enough. But he also has raised some important concerns about the power of the judiciary which go beyond Brexit.

And he disagreed with the Referendum being held at all - that seems to be his main beef. But he seems to be in the Remain camp.

And voting with the economy in mind is not just capitalist, pandering to big business etc. How do people think schools, hospitals, benefits etc get funded if the economy goes to shit and a massive amount of people lose their jobs?

people actually do think they’re just standing up for the will of the people

Yes and others think they are an elitist, snobbish, self-centered cabal but also happen to be standing up for the will of the people, in this instance.

The two things are not mutually exclusive

@FreshFreesias
"@justintimberlakesfishwife, but how do you know `thousands of people' will lose their jobs because of Brexit*"
*
Maybe read my post; if we leave the EU, DH's company will leave the UK. You are fond of an anecdote, well here's mine. Only it's fact. His company employs thousands of people in the UK. They will leave the UK leaving thousands of people out of a job. Pretty simple to understand I feel?

You know the economy contracted last quarter and if it happens again that means we’ll be in recession, @FreshFreesias?

How do people think schools, hospitals, benefits etc get funded if the economy goes to shit and a massive amount of people lose their jobs

I suppose the political argument is that 'at least we get to take back control' - even if the economy goes to shit.

Yet if you suggest to a politician who wants us to leave the EU that we need to reform the voting system to give people back more control and to give them more of a say so their vote counts, I bet they would run away like flies because all they want is a strong majority to get their policies through.

I want to avoid No Deal. I don't care if we Leave now as long as we protect GFA.
Op, I hope you are sensible enough to see the difference.

repeat ! the majority of people did NOT vote to leave the EU because MILLIONS of voters did not VOTE!!!!

oh has the OP given up with his weak argument and disappeared ?

@FreshFreesias oh and I didn't say that the caterers and cleaners voted to leave. I mentioned them as I wanted to demonstrate that it will be people from all economic classes that will be affected. I have no idea how the man who cleans the toilet at DH's company voted, but I do know he'd about to get shafted.

How do people think schools, hospitals, benefits etc get funded if the economy goes to shit and a massive amount of people lose their jobs

In Nazi Germany schools and hospitals were funded, jobs were created and unemployment dropped.

So that's OK then, as long as the economy is strong, the political system is secondary.

@PierreBezukov Godwin's law. FFS.

So that's OK then, as long as the economy is strong, the political system is secondary

The political system is important.

Personally, I don't think the EU is like the Nazi party.

I said nothing of the kind
To be clear, derxa, when I said 'I see Derxa's at it now, too', I meant that here you are, joining in with people like Freesia and Pierre who have very much implied that remainers are elite, that they (remainers) believe proles shouldn't vote (Pierre) and up you pop with your "They have a very nice middle class life and they don't want anything to disrupt it."
In short, I was lumping you all together. HTH.

So that's OK then, as long as the economy is strong, the political system is secondary

If Boris is allowed to barge on unchecked, we’ll have a political system akin to Nazi Germany with a shit economy to boot.

Personally, I don't think the EU is like the Nazi party

And there’s that too.