How shockingly ignorant Remain supporters are.

[ScreamingLadySutch]

Sorry, guys, but you are.

In the past week I have been told we must Remain because BJ is a dictator by one, and by another because it is easier to travel .

There seems to be no knowledge of our history and institutions, legal, political, sovereign and economic considerations, the history etc of Europe and what is really going on.

Labour and the trade unions were wholly against entry, and the Conservatives pushed it through by stealth and deceit. That crusty old socialist Tony Benn was prophetic on his remarks about what it meant. Now, today, that is reversed. Fascinating, really.

For a good grounding on the roots of the issue (Maastricht was going to result in Brexit it was completely inevitable), this documentary is quite useful:

Agree with your point on education as well. The ignorance of how law/government/institutions work (including the EU) among the general population is staggering and why we shouldn’t have had a bloody referendum on this issue in the first place.

"When I went to Switzerland, there were checks on the border between Switzerland and the EU."

Only on the major roads. Speak to people who travel regularly and they will tell you to take minor roads to avoid them. The Swiss mainly want you to pay the road tax/vignette to use the motorways.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/France%E2%80%93Switzerland_border

Do me a favour and copy and paste the bit of the treaty that made brexit inevitable?

Only on the major roads. Speak to people who travel regularly and they will tell you to take minor roads to avoid them

So when said there were no borders between Switzerland and the EU, you were in fact lying

Do you think there are checks when companies import goods into Switzerland?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44054594

YANBU OP.

Remainers in the main voted to stay in because they benefit economically from doing so. That is they may have a nice second home abroad, for example.

One Remainer I know has a second home in Portugal and is a fan of the EU because they have spent EU (or our) money on lots of new roads which make her journey from the airport to seaside mansion more convenient. She is hysterical about Brexit and insists that the lower orders or greengrocers' as she calls them, wouldn't have the necessary education to know what they were voting for'.

I'd much rather have a greengrocer running the country than some pie-in-the-sky academic, who has never employed anyone and never run a business.

After the referendum I was staggered when a senior exec at work said that she wanted to `spit at all the old people in the supermarket', as they were likely to have voted to leave.

When campaigning during the referendum I was frequently harassed by men. I noted that they didn't harass men, just me, the only woman in the group.

There is certainly a small (I hope) minority of Remainers who are guilty of all the prejudices they associate with Leavers.

Pierre Despite still being on the thread, I notice you haven't popped back with any evidence to back up your assertion that an 'elite group of remainers' have described Leavers as 'thick, racist, uneducated proles' and said their votes should be ignored?
Couldn't you find any, or are you still Googling?

So remain voters are ignorant, but yet again you've got leave voters arguing that we can be like Switzerland. No we can't! Let's start with one simple word; Schengen.
I'm a remain voter, so I am of course biased, but I can say with absolute certainly that's it's been the views and beliefs of leave voters that have demonstrated the most ignorance and lack of knowledge and understanding of how the EU operates and the impact of Brexit. Not all leave voters, but a significant number.
So yes OP YABU.

I’m not sure elected judges and ending up with a politically biased judiciary is great as an alternative either.

No, it's not a good alternative. Judges should be apolitical. That's one of the reasons the recent ruling was controversial, becuase it seemed to be deciding on a political matter. Lord Sumption's point is that politics should be left to elected politicians. He is quite critical of the way the Human Rights Act has vastly increased the scope of judges - a tiny, unelected, unrepresentative minority - making important and far-reaching decisions on extremely sensitive and controversial issues, such as, for example, euthanasia (which, to put it simplistically, politicians have voted against but judges have the power to liberalise and make laws over the top of parliament).

A small number of judges should not be making changes to the constitution either. That is up to politicians to do.

One of the strengths of our unwritten constitution is its flexibility - the American system doesn't seem like a better alternative.

So remain voters are ignorant, but yet again you've got leave voters arguing that we can be like Switzerland. No we can't! Let's start with one simple word; Schengen

THIS - I have lost count of the number of times people bring up Norway and Switzerland, without understanding how those countries operate within Europe, whilst being outside of the EU.

I wonder how many people who bring those countries up have actually travelled in a car from the EU to those countries and have seen what happens?

Remainers in the main voted to stay in because they benefit economically from doing so. I certainly did. The ones on MN arguing that they voted Remain based on lofty ideals or they cared about the GFA. I think they're arguing in retrospect. No. They have a very nice middle class life and they don't want anything to disrupt it.

One Remainer I know has a second home in Portugal and is a fan of the EU because they have spent EU (or our) money on lots of new roads which make her journey from the airport to seaside mansion more convenient. She is hysterical about Brexit and insists that the lower orders or greengrocers' as she calls them, wouldn't have the necessary education to know what they were voting for'.

Oh, goody! More anecdata positioning remainers as mansion-owning 'elites'. How very, very original. Well done, FreshFreesias.

The more I read the OP, the more I think it's actually Dominic Cummings. In which case fuck off. Far away. And don't come back.

One of the strengths of our unwritten constitution is its flexibility - the American system doesn't seem like a better alternative

Up until all this shitshow I was proud of our unwritten constitution. “Flexibility “ now appears to be translated to “making things up as they go along”

The ones on MN arguing that they voted Remain based on lofty ideals or they cared about the GFA

I voted Remain - and I most definitely am not a rich, second home owning elite person.

I think that ultimately, it's a good idea to have close economic and trading ties with your closest neighbours, with frictionless trade, and that's a good thing for the economy - and a good economy is good for all the country.

www.independent.co.uk/news/people/profiles/jonathan-sumption-donnish-but-deadly-2370949.html

Sumption in 2011
. In an interview in Prospect earlier this year after the announcement of his appointment, he was asked what his judicial philosophy would be: "You cannot relate the political sympathies of judges to the way they decide cases. A judge ought to have a healthy balance of respect for the governmental function combined with scepticism about the motives of particular ministers or officials."

Either he has changed his mind or he cannot be too critical of the approach the SC took.

andyold Switzerland and Norway are missing something though, there's a reason a border here wouldn't be like theirs, what was it again?

Ah yes, that pesky bothersome international peace treaty that was agreed to and signed by Britain.

YOu guys do realise that our eu money was spent on roads....in the UK

@FreshFreesias

"Remainers in the main voted to stay in because they benefit economically from doing so. That is they may have a nice second home abroad, for example.

One Remainer I know has a second home in Portugal and is a fan of the EU because they have spent EU (or our) money on lots of new roads which make her journey from the airport to seaside mansion more convenient. "

Where to start with this?
Yes economic factors were one of the
reasons that I chose to vote remain. Why? On a personal level there is a very high chance my DH will lose his job because of Brexit as his company need be based in the EU to operate. How selfish of me, eh? But along with DH thousands of others will lose their jobs too. From execs to managers to caterers and cleaners.
All economic forecasts have indicated we will be poorer as a result of Brexit. Even JRM has said it may take a generation for us to recover. And do you know who suffers the most in a recession? Those in poverty.
So yes economic reasons are pretty key. But not because we've all got fucking second homes in Portugal.

@twofingerstoEverything Oh, goody! More anecdata positioning remainers as mansion-owning 'elites'. How very, very original. Well done, FreshFreesias.

You're welcome!

@freshfreesias I voted remain and certainly do not have money to have a second home or employ people. I voted remain because of the overall economy.

I think that ultimately, it's a good idea to have close economic and trading ties with your closest neighbours, with frictionless trade, and that's a good thing for the economy - and a good economy is good for all the country. Well I agree but if you were at the bottom of the heap in June 2016 why would you vote for the status quo?

Well I agree but if you were at the bottom of the heap in June 2016 why would you vote for the status quo

I suppose it depends if you think the EU was to blame for being at the bottom of the heap.

Austerity was not down to the EU,. But I think it took the blame. Or was made to take the blame for the economic situation.

I just hope that if we do leave the EU, then those people who voted to leave because they were at the bottom of the heap and wanted a change see some benefit. I fear they won't.

Thing about the status quo and how horrible it is, tbe Yellowhammer document- which is a Johnson government document- shows that No Deal is much worse.

@justintimberlakesfishwife, but how do you know `thousands of people' will lose their jobs because of Brexit?

If this was the case, why did the majority of people vote to leave the EU?

But could it be, could it be, whisper it, that all these lovely `caterers and cleaners' didn't know what they were voting for?

And how bizarre is it that despite all the elites, so desperate to preserve their nice comfy status quo, from Mark Carney, to George Osborne and even Jo Swinson (whose family business receives millions of funding from the beloved and philanthropic EU), prophesising that the UK would go into recession even just by voting to Leave and that we would suffer an increase in unemployment, that to the contrary, the UK is in pretty much full employment and wages have increased?

They have a very nice middle class life and they don't want anything to disrupt it.
I see Derxa's at it now, too.
OK. All remainers are middle class people with second homes. Sorry - mansions.
All Leavers are put-upon proles that the elites want to disenfranchise.

Lazy, lazy thinking.