How shockingly ignorant Remain supporters are.

[ScreamingLadySutch]

Sorry, guys, but you are.

In the past week I have been told we must Remain because BJ is a dictator by one, and by another because it is easier to travel .

There seems to be no knowledge of our history and institutions, legal, political, sovereign and economic considerations, the history etc of Europe and what is really going on.

Labour and the trade unions were wholly against entry, and the Conservatives pushed it through by stealth and deceit. That crusty old socialist Tony Benn was prophetic on his remarks about what it meant. Now, today, that is reversed. Fascinating, really.

For a good grounding on the roots of the issue (Maastricht was going to result in Brexit it was completely inevitable), this documentary is quite useful:

I'll tell you what opening the door to authoritarianism looks like: closing down Parliament and telling the country's Supreme Court it is wrong.

Another ad hominem attack.

And actually the government said they respected the supreme court's decision and returned to Westminster.

I know Boris Johnson has a lot of voter support, so does Trump. So what? It does not mean they are right.

It is clear that many people are behind boris Johnson thwarting our democratic processes in order to get them what they want. I wonder how much they would accept this if a prime minister they didn’t agree with tried the same? Because when you accept unlawful actions, lies and bad-faith activities from one prime minister, you open the door to the same behaviour from subsequent prime ministers. Is that what you want for our country?

@PierreBezukov Boris Johnson said he thought the supreme court was wrong. That does not sound like respect to me.

PierreBezukov - good heavens, and there was me thinking that a majority of all the people who voted in the last election did not actually vote Conservative. But hey, if the People say they want to leave the EU, a minority government is democratically mandated to decide how we leave, even if it means leaving in a way 48% of voters definitely don't want and a substantial proportion of leave voters don't want, either. That's seriously weird democracy.

democracy itself is simple and at its heart is elections

1. maybe at its heart but surrounded by a large number of other features which you are ignoring.

2. This wasn’t an election, it was a referendum. We also had an election and it is those elected MPs who are supposedly thwarting democracy.

I find it staggering you suggest that the referendum has been ignored. People calling for a second referendum in July 2016, yes that was ignoring the referendum. But the last three years the country has been hamstrung in almost every respect because all our efforts have gone on Brexit. It hasn’t been “ignored”. Every effort has been made to implement it and the deal done didn’t happen as hard brexiters chose to vote against it.

I'll tell you what opening the door to authoritarianism looks like: closing down Parliament

Well, exactly. Leave lost any residual moral high ground on “democracy” when Boris prorogued.

"I'm not sure who your 'best academic' is/was but they are wrong"

No, he wasn't. I got angry and worked to prove him wrong. Consequence was a first class degree where before I was idle and failing.

Being rudely blunt got everyone going, we are exchanging real opinions here AND the personal attacks are lower than normal.

That is how he is not wrong.

HerSymphonyAndSong It is clear that many people are behind boris Johnson thwarting our democratic processes in order to get them what they want. I wonder how much they would accept this if a prime minister they didn’t agree with tried the same? Because when you accept unlawful actions, lies and bad-faith activities from one prime minister, you open the door to the same behaviour from subsequent prime ministers. Is that what you want for our country?

I only started understanding how democracy worked when I did a Masters degree in it (and in the EU). This sort of post (and I don't mean this as a personal attack) has so many mistakes, I don't know where to start.

Our constitution is woefully silent as to what happens on referendums (e.g. the Danish constitution requires 75% in favour of any referendum requiring constitutional change). Therefore we follow due process by taking decisions and then discussing them in court. The government has abided by the court decision (which is arguably wrong because it does not respect the separation of powers) but nonetheless it has abided by it.

None of this is "thwarting the democractic process"! If you can't describe with any certainty what the democratic process is in the first place, even the government can't follow it.

Boris Johnson said he thought the supreme court was wrong. That does not sound like respect to me

It's perfectly respectful and it's perfectly reasonable because thankfully we still have free speech in this country. We are allowed to respectfully disagree, guess what, even with the Supreme Court!

Former Supreme Court judge Lord Sumption actually called Lady Hale's ruling 'revolutionary'. Was he being disrespectful too?

@ScreamingLadySutch You keep claiming the high ground but ignore any comments with facts that I am guessing you can't answer.

That is how he is not wrong

And yet he didn’t think to impart the knowledge that anecdote isn’t evidence.

The lack of logic amongst people for whom the greatest fear being a corbyn govt, and yet being happy for a current prime minister to behave in exactly the same authoritarian way that corbyn is presumed to behave, is extraordinary. If you believe corbyn, or anyone like him who may in the future become prime minister, to be that dangerous, why on earth would you hand them the tools to do the damage you fear?

And no, I’m not a corbyn supporter and I don’t especially want a corbyn govt, before the inevitable “remain voter = corbyn supporter” lazy thinking kicks in

I'll tell you what opening the door to authoritarianism looks like: closing down Parliament

Well, exactly. Leave lost any residual moral high ground on “democracy” when Boris prorogued.

This is not exactly true. Parliament is thwarting government, the Fixed Term Parliament act is in play and the parliament that is thwarting government will not vote for an election they know they are going to lose.

That is what is undemocratic.

Democracy is:

1. majority vote
2. consent of the losers.

People forget about 2. In this, the losers ARE NOT CONSENTING which is profoundly undemocratic.

We also had an election and it is those elected MPs who are supposedly thwarting democracy

Absolutely, and they are being subversive by thwarting the will of the people , and will be punished at the next election. We had an election in 2017 and parties that had promised to honour Brexit were voted for. MPs voted to trigger Article 50.

But its OK to disregard these democratic processes too, I guess?

Our history is important. Our future more so.

QualCheckBot I know the govt has abided by the court ruling. I am talking about those who say he was right to do what he did and that the judges were anti democratic. It is the support I am talking about.

*Boris Johnson said he thought the supreme court was wrong. That does not sound like respect to me

It's perfectly respectful and it's perfectly reasonable because thankfully we still have free speech in this country. We are allowed to respectfully disagree, guess what, even with the Supreme Court!*

And this is what has led to a lot of this unholy shitshow. People thinking their ill educated, uninformed opinions actually carry the same weight as educated, informed ones.

BoJo can think all he likes the SC were wrong. I can think I look like Jennifer Lopez all I like . Opinions are just that.

even if it means leaving in a way 48% of voters definitely don't want and a substantial proportion of leave voters don't want, either. That's seriously weird democracy.

That's simply because a shed load of MPs have consistency opposed against whatever deal with put to them, just to thwart the democratic process. If MPs had behaved properly, they'd have voted for a compromise deal. The ones who voted for their own political purposes certainly don't deserve to be re-elected and I hope their constituents voted against them. They're the ones who are a disgrace to democracy.

arguably wrong because it does not respect the separation of powers

I think the total opposite (and yes I’m a lawyer). The government’s case was predicated on an argument that the PM could prorogue parliament for as long as he wanted for any reason he wanted, and it wouldn’t be justiciable. I cannot see how such a position would be consistent with the separation of powers.

Of course the decision would be arguably wrong whatever had been decided - none of us could call the outcome and I think most were surprised by a unanimous decision.

Interesting Allison Pearson is quoting that email in an article entitled

”Normal people couldn’t give a monkey’s about 'Gropegate' – they're still backing Boris”

If you read the comments to that article some are utterly shocking and misogynistic in a way that doesn’t reflect the leave or remain supporters I know. That was not an email quoted in a balanced article but quoted in a highly politicised piece.

HerSymphonyAndSong The lack of logic amongst people for whom the greatest fear being a corbyn govt, and yet being happy for a current prime minister to behave in exactly the same authoritarian way that corbyn is presumed to behave, is extraordinary. If you believe corbyn, or anyone like him who may in the future become prime minister, to be that dangerous, why on earth would you hand them the tools to do the damage you fear?

This doesn't make any sense. What lack of logic and which people? Proroguing parliament is a tool provided by our Constitution and it has been used a number of times. The Court has interpreted its use and the court's decision (although arguably wrong) has been followed by the government.

Oh for goodness sake OP.

The situation is incredibly nuanced, and people will have different opinions due to their own personal and political values, culture and world view.

It demonstrates a huge blind spot when people argue that their perspective on Brexit is correct because of ‘the facts’.

Each perspective has ‘facts’.

the parliament that is thwarting government will not vote for an election they know they are going to lose.

Yes. They are acting abominably.

Not to say Brexiteers haven't acted badly either. JRM and the European Research Group have behaved odiously.

But it's the Remain MPs who are deliberately thwarting the will of the people. Because 'they know best' apparently. Better than us proles

Parliament is thwarting government

Eh? Isn’t that exactly parliament’s job?

Parliament is not thwarting government. We’ve got a bloody minority government! That’s why they can’t get anything through.