How shockingly ignorant Remain supporters are.

[ScreamingLadySutch]

Sorry, guys, but you are.

In the past week I have been told we must Remain because BJ is a dictator by one, and by another because it is easier to travel .

There seems to be no knowledge of our history and institutions, legal, political, sovereign and economic considerations, the history etc of Europe and what is really going on.

Labour and the trade unions were wholly against entry, and the Conservatives pushed it through by stealth and deceit. That crusty old socialist Tony Benn was prophetic on his remarks about what it meant. Now, today, that is reversed. Fascinating, really.

For a good grounding on the roots of the issue (Maastricht was going to result in Brexit it was completely inevitable), this documentary is quite useful:

Oh and I’ve never argued the referendum doesn’t count because people were ‘misled’. I didn’t think it was sensible to have a referendum in the first place but that decision having been made, the result stands. The question is where we go next given where we have ended up.

PierreBesukov At its root is a hubris, an arrogance that they (the Establishment, big business, parliament, sections of the media, academics) know better than the 'proles', ie the 17.4 million. Because those proles are thick, racist, uneducated etc. Therefore it's OK to dismiss their vote and to reverse the result. Or get another referendum until the vote is 'correct'.

To be fair, its the usual rejoinder these days of anyone who disagrees with your political viewpoint. "You just need to read this" they squeak. Or "You just don't understand how the EU works".

I generally ask them whether they think that mutual recognition has been successful in replacing harmonisation or whether it hasn't been adequately utilised. Or whether direct effect of only some regulations should be ameliorated by using more primary legislation rather than of secondary legislation. Or whether increased purposive decision making by the CJEU and its lack of judicial precedent works against non-civil law based jurisdictions.

I voted Remain by the way, but I've yet to have a conversation (whether online or in person) with a patronising person who actually understands the basics.

Mind you, I've never again been visited by a political canvasser since I asked the last one who came to my door whether he thought the level of parliamentary scrutiny of secondary legislation was really compliant with the rule of law, and to explain to me how the safeguards that were in place worked effectively. He just walked off, without answering!

@RuggerHug as I understand it there's no problem because neither the UK nor the ROI will 'put up' a border therefore no solution is required. I might have misunderstood though - being as I am very, very ignorant.

@RuggerHug - So the OPs genius solution to Ireland is.....??

Ireland does not require a solution. The UK requires a solution to the ridiculous situation they have found themselves in because they did not consider their obligations under the GFA before introducing red lines that contravene those obligations.

The government promised to implement "the will of the people" but they haven't. Shouldn't the anger towards those that voted to remain be directed solely towards those MPs that voted down the deal. If the sainted Rees-Mogg (against whom no nasty comments must be made for fear of upsetting Op), was serious about leaving then why vote against said deal? Why don't those that voted to leave at least take some responsibility for the current situation instead of heaping the blame on those that never wanted, or indeed, voted for it?

Quaffy To take another example, a democratic government relies on the separation of powers. That means that the government cannot act unlawfully regardless of the result of any referendum - or indeed election.

Oh at last, at last!

Virtually every Dutch person I've met can talk about the separation of powers and understands why its important. But here, you get abusive comments about the appearance of politicians and word plays on their names. Its so depressing!

Ireland will be reunited in the next few years. Think that's obvious.

Ah yes, ignorant us in the real world. OP is the only one who understands, if only they could dumb their reasons down enough for us plebs to follow.

@Apricotjamsndwich - you do realise that, under the WTO most favoured nation principle, if the UK does not put up a border with Ireland, they must do the same for all other countries? Are you ok with no controls in place with anyone?

But it is an elite group of Remainers who are trying to frustrate, if not cancel Brexit, and these are the arguments they are using.

Can you link to some evidence that an 'elite group of remainers' have described Leavers as 'thick, racist, uneducated proles' and said their votes should be ignored?

Nine times out of ten, when I've seen the phrase 'thick, racist Leaver' it's written by a Leaver claiming that's how they're perceived by Remainers. Odd that.

Start blurring the lines and you'll open the door tl authoritarianism

Priceless

@Apricotjamsndwich - just realised you were paraphrasing the op's insightful suggestion for dealing with the british border in Ireland. Apologies for suggesting you were that ignorant.

@whyamIdoingthis yes think I might understand that. I think it might be the op who doesn't appreciate it might not be as simple as not 'putting up' a border. Sorry I didn't think my sarcasm was all that subtle.

Really OP? You poor thing.

@whyamidoingthis it's ok-apology accepted.

Also I used 'tinkers wink' earlier but is that right? Should it be 'tiddlers' or even 'twidlers' ?

I'm a remianer and totally understand our history, parliamentary institutions and history of the EU. I knoa then UK wanted to join for years before we were finally admitted and I know the UK had a very good deal in the EU with concession other countries didn't. I voted in the first referendum in the 70s. I voted remain then and remain in 2016 because I believe being in a union with other European countries is the best thing for the UK
I wouldn't be so arrogant to say all remainers knew what they were voting for or that all leavers are stupid of course they are not. But the arguments I have heard from people I know who voted leave have not been about our history or economic security. They were 'I voted leave because when I go into town I no longer hear anyone speaking Engkish', 'I voted leave because of Muslim terrorists' 'I voted leave because I didn't have a say in it when we went in' 'I voted leave because we don't have any elected MEPs'

Absolutely Why don't those that voted to leave at least take some responsibility for the current situation instead of heaping the blame on those that never wanted, or indeed, voted for it?
The ERG consistently voted against the so called 'May deal'

@twofingerstoEverything Can I be the other one out of the ten, please?

My experience is that of friends, family and acquaintances who I had any respect for their opinion and intellect voted out, those who I had always thought were thick, voted leave.

The latter are now former friends, family and acquaintances as I have no time or inclination to have people like that in my life.

Lonelycrab Start blurring the lines and you'll open the door tl authoritarianism

Priceless

Why's it "priceless"? Do you not think the rule of law and separation of powers are constitutional safeguards worth bothering about? Maybe you think that's all just makey-uppy big words that other countries have to bother with but not here? That you maybe know some secret that mean education and constitutional theory don't apply?

Of course disregarding a legitimate public referendum, whether binding in its terms or not, is authoritarian.

Democracy isn’t straightforward.

It is, actually. It is fundamentally based on majority rule. Decisions are made by voting in elections, and the majority vote holds.

Of course parliamentary democratic systems are complex, and differ across states.

But democracy itself is simple and at its heart is elections. To dismiss them, whether by fudging or simply ignoring (in the case of the hysterically-named Liberal Democrats) is playing with fire and stupendously short-sighted.

I'll tell you what opening the door to authoritarianism looks like: closing down Parliament and telling the country's Supreme Court it is wrong.

“Not at all. But it is an elite group of Remainers who are trying to frustrate, if not cancel Brexit, and these are the arguments they are using. ”

Complete nonsense, the reason we haven’t left yet is that an elite group of leavers can’t compromise with other leavers on what type of leaving they will accept. This leave camp pity party is such bollocks. Leavers have been calling the shots since the referendum, and it is the leave camp’s fault that leave voters have been let down and all the promises made to them turned out to be impossible to fulfil. Remain voters aren’t even considered “people” by the government. The ball has been in the leave camp’s court all along and they have totally fucked it up for their supporters

@tumbleisatwat I have seen lots of people who have said they do not live in NI, saying reunification of Ireland is the solution. I have no idea of you live in NI or not, but I always think people who say this are a bit thick. What it would lead to is an upsurge in terrorism in NI. The Good Friday agreement was a peace treaty. You don't break that without consequences.

A question: do any of the Leave voters (I was not one) believe that they would have voted Leave if the EU had not expanded to include the Eastern European and Balkan states since 2003?

When the UK joined the then EEC, it was a very different proposition to what it is now.

Remember too that Albania, Turkey and Yugoslavia are all current applicant states. (Morocco applied but was turned down).

I think you are right about Irish unification.

Remain is not as strong as it believes. Why is Boris so far ahead in the polls? This email:

"I was taken with a recent email to me from Louise, a Telegraph reader: “Allison, please let Boris know how many people are right behind him. What I think is the British are a mix of very practical people and the idealists. The idealists voted Brexit. I did the classic British thing and voted Remain because I am practical, because it was easy and I worried about money.

"But that is no longer the practical answer because of all that has happened. We can’t go into reverse. We can’t undermine democracy. So pragmatists like me are now Brexiteers. But being pragmatists we are also quiet. We work. We look after our families. We don’t waste time marching or shouting. But there are more of us than they think. We are just quietly getting on. I am convinced of it. Please tell him not to give up.”

It can’t be easy being him at the moment. He’s being treated like a cartoon character incapable of feeling pain. “He’s only human,” an aide says. If he were Left-wing, they’d call it bullying. But he’s a Tory, so different standards apply. He clearly considers it his patriotic duty to be cheerful. This conference has been imbued with his optimism, ministers are brimming over with plans. A sense of possibility is in the air.

Boris makes you smile; it’s a simple gift but a mighty powerful one. And Louise, and the polls, are right. Millions of us are quietly behind him. “Bit below the belt, that stuff with Boris,” said a young Mancunian I bought a paper from. The Remainers can sledge away, but people are wising up to their game. " - Alison Pearson.