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AIBU?

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Original poster

How shockingly ignorant Remain supporters are.

671 replies

ScreamingLadySutch · 06/10/2019 08:07

Sorry, guys, but you are.

In the past week I have been told we must Remain because BJ is a dictator Hmm by one, and by another because it is easier to travel Hmm.

There seems to be no knowledge of our history and institutions, legal, political, sovereign and economic considerations, the history etc of Europe and what is really going on.

Labour and the trade unions were wholly against entry, and the Conservatives pushed it through by stealth and deceit. That crusty old socialist Tony Benn was prophetic on his remarks about what it meant. Now, today, that is reversed. Fascinating, really.

For a good grounding on the roots of the issue (Maastricht was going to result in Brexit it was completely inevitable), this documentary is quite useful:

OP posts:
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6
ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 06/10/2019 12:52

The losers are consenting. However, the form of Brexit was not specified by the referendum so they can legitimately chose which type of Brexit they consent to.

57Varieties · 06/10/2019 12:52

But it's the Remain MPs who are deliberately thwarting the will of the people.

Maybe I’m wrong, but didn’t many leave MPs vote against the WA as well?

Xenia · 06/10/2019 12:53

Most lawyers thought the Surpeme Court would go the other way than it did so it is not really fair on BJ to lay huge blame on him on that score.. By all means complain that having sex outside of marriage or finding his second wife (the one he is just divorcing) when married to his first is wrong but the comments made against him relating to democracy are not fair.

He cut short his US trip and came back to Parliament after the SC judgment and has continued to follow the law. The big problem is MPs - they rejected the withdrawal deal the EU accepted and BJ voted for. They will not revoke art 50. They will not agree to crash out. What do they want? There seems to be no single course they will agree.

PierreBezukov · 06/10/2019 12:53

57Varieties did you read the rest of my post? And Lord Sumption, former Supreme Court lawyer's view on the ruling? Surely he is an expert? Some people call him the most intelligent man in the UK!
Confused

user1497207191 · 06/10/2019 12:53

Talking about "thickies" on both sides, I was talking to a strong remainer a few days ago. He's hardly "thick" as he's a highly paid IT consultant. But he hadn't a clue. He genuinely thought that all the EU inspired laws would be abolished on 1 November and that firms would be free to ignore unions, cut pay, sack staff, and import unsafe goods. I couldn't actually believe he genuinely thought that such laws would suddenly disappear. He was quite surprised when I put him right that all such laws were enacted in the UK Parliament and continue to stand until Parliament actively changes the laws.

Quaffy · 06/10/2019 12:54

But its OK to disregard these democratic processes too, I guess

Which democratic processes? Voting for Brexit in parliament? It isn’t just remain MPs who haven’t done that - in fact, plenty of them did vote for the deal eg Ken Clarke.

and yes people may be punished at the next election because being able to change your mind and vote to reflect is inherent to democracy

57Varieties · 06/10/2019 12:54

Most lawyers thought the Surpeme Court would go the other way than it did

Not according to the ones I follow. A unanimous decision of 11 justices would tend to suggest it wasn’t really balanced on a knife edge.

HerSymphonyAndSong · 06/10/2019 12:54

QualCheckBot.
People for whom the greatest fear is a corbyn govt but are prepared for a govt they support to prorogue unlawfully. Regardless of how the Supreme Court decided, and he govt’s acceptance of that, there are people who believe that boris Johnson was right in his prorogation even though they would be horrified by corbyn doing the same thing. You cannot accept one prime minister using their powers unlawfully to do something you agree with, if you would not accept a prime minister doing the same over something you disagree with.

BubblegumFactory · 06/10/2019 12:55

Did you know that in 2004, about 6 million people voted for Steve Brookstein to win the X factor?
I reckon most of them would now say it was a waste of 10p.

jennymanara · 06/10/2019 12:55

@xenia A lot of lawyers thought the court would rule in favour of Johnson until they heard the woeful lack of evidence from the government side. Then they were predicting they would rule against him.

Original poster
ScreamingLadySutch · 06/10/2019 12:56

Undemocratic is leave voters not being represented by obstructive Remain MPs - WHEN our system is that sovereignty comes from the people.

Constituency after constituency voted leave -and have remain MPs. Who are obstructing the government who are trying to implement the referendum.

How can you fail to see the undemocratic nature of this?

That is why parliament was prorogued.

OP posts:
JacquesHammer · 06/10/2019 12:56

Constituency after constituency voted leave -and have remain MPs. Who are obstructing the government who are trying to implement the referendum

They are working fully within the democratic remit of a representative democracy.

57Varieties · 06/10/2019 12:57

That is why parliament was prorogued.

Parliament wasn’t prorogued 🙃

PierreBezukov · 06/10/2019 12:57

The big problem is MPs - they rejected the withdrawal deal the EU accepted and BJ voted for. They will not revoke art 50. They will not agree to crash out. What do they want? There seems to be no single course they will agree.

xenia has it.

HerSymphonyAndSong · 06/10/2019 12:57

I am talking about people’s attitudes to johnson’s behaviour. Their support for his means because they agree with the end. If they didn’t agree with the end they would not support the means. This is how authoritarianism becomes acceptable to people. I am relieved that the Supreme Court checked the behaviour and the govt abided by that, but it is alarming what people are prepared to accept in the name of “getting brexit done” with no thought to what it means for future governance of our country

Coffeeandchocolate9 · 06/10/2019 12:57

The problem is, a lot of these so-called experts said we’d be plunged into a deep recession the day after the referendum if Leave won. That didn’t happen. I think people have lost faith in the experts.

Didn’t the result of the referendum wipe several trillion dollars off the global economy, cause the single biggest day drop in the value of the £ in recent history and result in the Bank of England and possibly the ECB pumping large sums of money into the system to prevent a global recession?

What short memories some people have eh?

But most of what the financial experts said was what would happen if we leave the EU.

We haven't left yet

Happysummer2020 · 06/10/2019 12:58

Surprised so many people are invested in this thread... the OP is very pleased with herself but is so very far from being the great debater she is in her head.

Quaffy · 06/10/2019 12:59

Constituency after constituency voted leave -and have remain MPs. Who are obstructing the government who are trying to implement the referendum. How can you fail to see the undemocratic nature of this? That is why parliament was prorogued

So democratically elected MPs were not behaving in the way Boris Johnson liked so it was somehow in the interests of democracy to shut down parliament, the central tenet of our democracy.

Honestly the double standards.

JacquesHammer · 06/10/2019 12:59

the OP is very pleased with herself but is so very far from being the great debater she is in her head

That’s why it’s so amusing Wink

PierreBezukov · 06/10/2019 12:59

it is alarming what people are prepared to accept in the name of “getting brexit done” with no thought to what it means for future governance of our country

I don't agree with disregard lawful and democratic processes.

That's why the 2016 referendum must be honoured.

greenlavender · 06/10/2019 12:59

Don't pretend you're sorry. I have no apology for disagreeing with you. I'm many things but I'm certainly not ignorant.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 06/10/2019 13:03

I love the “that’s why Parliament was prorogued” comment.

So the Supreme Court were right.

I also agree with PP that most lawyers watching the SC case thought BJ was in trouble once his case was opened.

Walkaround · 06/10/2019 13:03

QualCheckBot - that just demonstrates to me that Leavers claiming the democratic moral high ground, when actually the referendum just drove a coach and horses through normal democratic processes in this country, is disingenuous. It is not a form of democracy our constitution is set up for and it has simply resulted in chaos. We can't implement the result of the referendum under the current constitution, because as you say, the constitution is woefully silent on how to do it if Parliament disagrees with how the executive want to do it. To bring the whole of Parliament into disrepute and claim most of our democratically elected representatives are trying to subvert the will of the People and that the People would be happy with no deal, without testing that with a vote, does not strike me as democracy in action.

57Varieties · 06/10/2019 13:05

I am talking about people’s attitudes to johnson’s behaviour. Their support for his means because they agree with the end. If they didn’t agree with the end they would not support the means. This is how authoritarianism becomes acceptable to people. I am relieved that the Supreme Court checked the behaviour and the govt abided by that, but it is alarming what people are prepared to accept in the name of “getting brexit done” with no thought to what it means for future governance of our country

Totally agree.

If Parliament was prorogued so the government could try and abolish the NHS would that be OK? Or if JC was PM and tried to nationalise industries without Parliamentary scrutiny? If the issue had been non justiciable it could have led to willy nilly proroguing for any reason for any length of time just so the government could do what it liked. People can dress it up or bury their heads in the sand however they like but that would be no more than a dictatorship.

People are too blinded by Brexit and “getting it done” to see the wider picture.

I do actually think we should leave, despite having voted remain. I don’t want another referendum; they are too divisive. I was aware when I voted that remaining would lead to ever closer social, political and economic integration and I wasn’t massively comfortable about it, but I felt it was the best of the 2 binary options on the ballot paper. But equally I don’t think the votes of 17m people should be allowed to destroy the economy and prospects of a country of over 60m citizens because “democracy”.

Apricotjamsndwich · 06/10/2019 13:06

Just seen you've told us about your first class degree - I guffawed into my coffee. Congrats by the way a first takes a lot of work, and well done to your lecturer for geeing you up but this is a lot of effort to go to to announce to the world you've a first class degree and are very brainy. You could just have posted AIBU to tell you I've a first class degree and am very brainy.

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