How shockingly ignorant Remain supporters are.

[ScreamingLadySutch]

Sorry, guys, but you are.

In the past week I have been told we must Remain because BJ is a dictator by one, and by another because it is easier to travel .

There seems to be no knowledge of our history and institutions, legal, political, sovereign and economic considerations, the history etc of Europe and what is really going on.

Labour and the trade unions were wholly against entry, and the Conservatives pushed it through by stealth and deceit. That crusty old socialist Tony Benn was prophetic on his remarks about what it meant. Now, today, that is reversed. Fascinating, really.

For a good grounding on the roots of the issue (Maastricht was going to result in Brexit it was completely inevitable), this documentary is quite useful:

@EntropyRising Yes because the facts support remaining. One of my friends has to write financial papers giving advice around Brexit that has to be neutral in terms of remain or leave. A kind of like pros and cons. She said everyone working on those papers found it very hard to come up with economic pros to leave.

They're not facts. They're economic forecasts, which are filtered through a set of assumptions having inherent bias.

The implication of your original post, that you have a superior grasp of economics to the average leaver because you read the FT, probably passes through a lot of arguments without comment because most would just assume that the FT is a smart person's source of finance news (on the main, it is - but it is straightforwardly a Remain paper). It's as slanted as the Guardian.

Don't you think you should be reading a wider range of papers?

-----

A question that many Leavers who post on such threads fail to answer.

There is a withdrawal agreement agreed with the EU.

If Parliament voted to pass that, would you be happy?
It is leaving the EU with a deal. So we would have left the EU.

The will of the people would have been upheld.

-------

Parliament is 73% remain, it does not reflect the will of the people. I don't think you'll find many leavers who think leaving but staying in the customs union is even remotely a satisfying outcome, they'd rather stay.

DBML
You misunderstand. I love the UK. I am using this in a particular context trying to point out that we are really not so important a country as some Brexiteers who are stuck in the British Empire days imagine. There really is no need to take offence.

I have family who died in the war for this “poxy little country”. Please have some respect

So did I. It doesn’t change facts.

have family who died in the war for this “poxy little country”. Please have some respect

We all have family members in the past who fought for this country.

Yes, we have a high GDP. But when you dig below the surface, we aren't doing ok. We have a lot of people in this country to share that wealth between, we have expensive houses. poverty, people going to food banks, massive inequality, a divide between the affluent parts of this country and those left behind, we cling to our days of Empire...

We are doing ok - but we are not the country we were of Empire days. The world has moved on.

@ScreamingLadySutch I get that you think you are a very intelligent, broad minded and academic person. Your shouty capitals tell an entirely different story. DEAR.

🍖

@walkaround

You sound like an intelligent person. Are you deliberately ignoring how, rightly or wrongly, the referendum was sold to the country?
And there are plenty of remain MP’s whose constituents are leave and who are ignoring their constituents as they know best. My MP is one of those.

I don't think you'll find many leavers who think leaving but staying in the customs union is even remotely a satisfying outcome, they'd rather stay

It's Leaving the EU.

That's what was said on the vote.

Leave or Remain.

@DBML Most people have family who died in wars for this country. I don't think it is a poxy country, I do think we are not as important in the economic and political stage as many leavers think. I also think the whole Brexit process has caused a lot of reputational damage to our country.

I have family who died in the war for this “poxy little country”. Please have some respect.

OK. We are an insignificant little country stuck between China and the US. Better?

choma totally agree. This is NOW and that was then. We are relatively unimportant on the world stage.

@chomalungma - no, anything that is BRINO I am not in favour of, at all.

The referendum was a binary question. Probably it shouldn't have been a binary question for a complex issue, but the question really did mean leave with no deal.

Regarding democracy and people's approval of parliament's behaviour: I really was not interested in the sovereignty issue (I was focused on the economic arguments) but now I really am concerned about sovereignty.

Democracy depends on a contract. Most importantly, democracy only works on the CONSENT OF THE LOSER. I work in Africa a lot where this is not followed at all (its only democracy if I win, otherwise I will win by military coup). 16 of the worlds 20 failed states lie in Africa as a result. The behaviour of parliament is shocking. They are not consenting to having lost, and a lot of those MPs are from Leave constituencies. If you look at a referendum map of the UK in terms of constituencies the country was blue Leave save for the metro areas, the South East and Scotland if I remember rightly. Who are they representing? In the UK (but not Europe) parliament gets its instructions from the people. The people are sovereign. What parliament is doing, is thwarting the will of the people and stopping an instruction they received. Last time this happened was the English civil war (Cromwell). For those that say the past is the past.

@GettingABitDesperateNow - I know! Goady old me, but at least we have got past the insults and are actually now debating properly.

@tumbleisatwat

How rude. Your mother must be proud.

@dbml

So you would be happy if your MP voted for the withdrawal agreement. Because that is Leaving the EU.

As was put on the vote.

@screamingladysutch

no, anything that is BRINO I am not in favour of, at all

The referendum was a binary question. Probably it shouldn't have been a binary question for a complex issue, but the question really did mean leave with no deal

So you are saying that the question was wrong,

You can't change your mind now. The question was Leave or Remain.

It was not Leave without a deal. It was Leave or Remain.

16 of the worlds 20 failed states lie in Africa as a result.

I think you failed to finish your sentence there. Let me help.
16 of the worlds 20 failed states lie in Africa as a result of Western imperial meddling
There you go.

@ScreamingLadySutch you don't understand parliamentary democracy that is clear from your last post.

@DBML

Yep, she'd have said exactly the same thing.

'Fuck' is a good, solid old English word. You should be proud to use it.

Meanwhile....all the leave voters are fully informed of the political, legal, sovereign and economic landscape and this is what they based their vote on

What a load of generalisations

@chomalungma

Actually I’m not as invested in the way we leave as much as just thinking we should leave now.
In fact, if I had to vote again, I’d be very much tempted to vote remain. I need a strong pound to dollar rate for my life to function smoothly and the exchange rate is killing me. However, I know it’s not about me personally.

Naff off op. Brexshit supporter @ScreamingLadySutch

"We are relatively unimportant on the world stage." - we are the 7th largest economy in the world.

And it was pointed out by a German economist, that if Britain leaves the UK the EU shrinks economically not by one country"

"On to Brexit, for which you are partly responsible due to your negligence, and your failure to help out the UK. Our historically good relationship with the UK is being threatened as a result. What did David Cameron ask for that was so terrible? No more social welfare immediately and for everyone. Stronger national parliaments. Less EU bureaucracy. But in Brussels he was banging his head against a brick wall. This was a great opportunity to reform the EU into a leaner organisation that focused on its primary job of maintaining a single market. But no, that was out of the question. Instead, you decided to gamble with the unity of the EU! And now we are counting the cost. 15 billion Euros from Britain will soon be missing from the budget ... but not the EU and they don't have to, not as long as they have Germany to pay the bills. Even bigger than the hole in the EU budget, is the cost for the German economy. The UK is the second biggest economy in EU, as big as the 19 smallest combined. From an economic perspective, the EU is shrinking not to 27, but to 9 states. The nonchalance, the indifference displayed by Brussels and Berlin in the face of such an enormous event, verges on a pathological denial of reality ...."

Believe in yourselves, people!

We are relatively unimportant on the world stage." - we are the 7th largest economy in the world

And yet we have massive inequalities, food banks, high house prices, people with in work poverty, expensive childcare..

Our GDP per capita isn't that high.

What's so great about having a large economy - it just makes everything expensive in a country and makes goods expensive to export to poorer countries?

@sleepingbeautyaurora :

remember the title? About ignorance? WHY are you walking straight into it and vindicating my point!

Engage brain. Then open mouth.

On a tangent @Sunshinegirl82 your children won't get irish citizenship because their father's grandmother is Irish.

For him to get it she will have had to have been born on the island of Ireland. So he may have a claim. Your children may have qualified if he had got his citizenship before their birth.

Peter Oborne who is an archetypal leave voter has changed his mind over Brexit because of Northern Ireland and the GFA. Why are you not addressing these concerns OP.