How shockingly ignorant Remain supporters are.

[ScreamingLadySutch]

Sorry, guys, but you are.

In the past week I have been told we must Remain because BJ is a dictator by one, and by another because it is easier to travel .

There seems to be no knowledge of our history and institutions, legal, political, sovereign and economic considerations, the history etc of Europe and what is really going on.

Labour and the trade unions were wholly against entry, and the Conservatives pushed it through by stealth and deceit. That crusty old socialist Tony Benn was prophetic on his remarks about what it meant. Now, today, that is reversed. Fascinating, really.

For a good grounding on the roots of the issue (Maastricht was going to result in Brexit it was completely inevitable), this documentary is quite useful:

"We are relatively unimportant on the world stage." - we are the 7th largest economy in the world.

Sounds impressive doesn't it?
Until you put it into context.

Democracy depends on a contract. Most importantly, democracy only works on the CONSENT OF THE LOSER.

^^ irony.

The behaviour of parliament is shocking. They are not consenting to having lost, and a lot of those MPs are from Leave constituencies.

Equally, those from the ‘side’ who won did not consent to the result of the referendum being implemented via the Withdrawal Act because it was not the flavour of Brexit they preferred (despite the referendum being silent on this), thus thwarting the implementation of the referendum vote. (Many of them Remain seats, but that’s by the by.)

If you look at a referendum map of the UK in terms of constituencies the country was blue Leave save for the metro areas, the South East and Scotland if I remember rightly. Who are they representing?

cough and Northern Ireland cough

I suspect you’re being disingenuous and you do understand how population density works, and that just under a third of the population of England lives in London and the South East, not taking into account the populations of the other cities.

"We are relatively unimportant on the world stage." - we are the 7th largest economy in the world.

We are at the moment. We'll have to see whether that continues to be the case in 10/20 years time. Being in the EU has been good, economically speaking, for the UK: www.inet.ox.ac.uk/news/Brexit

Believe in yourselves, people!

Oh, I believe in myself. What I don't believe in is the selfless benevolence of those leading the Leave campaign.

What a load of generalisations
Well it’s certainly a load of Something

In the future they’ll write books on this shit explaining how it came to pass- this thread will be a good example of how delusions can take hold of people- even those that claim to be intelligent, and how those delusions gain inertia and, well, wreck a once strong nation.

The problem is, a lot of these so-called experts said we’d be plunged into a deep recession the day after the referendum if Leave won. That didn’t happen. I think people have lost faith in the experts.

Didn’t the result of the referendum wipe several trillion dollars off the global economy, cause the single biggest day drop in the value of the £ in recent history and result in the Bank of England and possibly the ECB pumping large sums of money into the system to prevent a global recession?

YABU OP, and furthermore, nowhere near as intelligent as you seem to think you are.

So the backstop was a 'wheeze' and the worry about Ireland is all a big nothing because the ROI won't 'put up a border'.

I thought there was a bit more to it than just doing nothing.

I thought there might be more implications to do with the end of free movement, customs, alignment of standards and that sort of sillines, but then again I'm very ignorant and clearly a bit fluffy headed.

I can put my disturbing memories of crossing the border as a child with soldiers carrying large guns all around to rest. Phew- that's super.

Also I suppose at the end of the day if there are any problems we can leave it to the Irish to sort out.

I am duly reassured and grateful.

Maybe the IMF did say that? But more likely they said if this happens with Brexit e.g. we crash out, this is what we predict will happen.

How can you possibly know it’s “more likely”? I have provided an article from a reputable news source but you can provide no evidence for your claim whatsoever, apart from your own hunch. There’s no shame in admitting you’re wrong, you know.

I have family who died in the war for this “poxy little country”. Please have some respect.

You could do with reading a history book

DBML:
The referendum was held differently. The government stated that the outcome would be honoured. Nothing else matters.

Really? Nothing? Peace in Northern Ireland? The country's prosperity? The country being seen as hostile to 'foreigners'? The environment? Climate change?
None of these matter as much as pandering to nutters like Farage and upholding a vote manipulated by Cummings and others? Right you are then.

The OP claims to want to debate with facts but seems to be cherry picking which comments she'd like to take on and ignoring the ones that are clearly intellectually and factually challenging to the OP. Not surprising to be honest.

Corporate taxes give us jobs and PAYS for everything actually corporate tax only accounts for something like 6% of all tax related revenue, just FYI. Not sure what your point was and if that impacts it, though.

Is that you Dominic?

@ChazsBrilliantAttitude OP addressed Ireland a few posts back. I think she was saying it's a fuss about nothing.

Have I missed op's solution to the Irish border ?

The OP claims to want to debate with facts but seems to be cherry picking which comments she'd like to take on and ignoring the ones that are clearly intellectually and factually challenging to the OP. Not surprising to be honest.

This!

Anyone who thinks Ireland is a fuss over nothing has clearly never spent much time there

OP addressed Ireland a few posts back. I think she was saying it's a fuss about nothing.

Well that seems very ignorant. Pretty ironic considering the topic of the thread.

Its a very childish level of debate that you don't seem to get in other countries - I was living in the The Netherlands at the time of the referendum and for a while afterwards. It was perfectly possible to have a sensible discussion about it with an average Dutch person, not necessarily with a university education, without getting into the abusive name calling that seems to polarise "debate" here.

The left wing opposition are currently plotting a coup and the British constitution is inadequate to deal with the current situation. That's the reality of it.

the origins in the EU were to move on from the horror of ww2.

No. Incorrect. But a typical example of a Remainer not knowing European history and believing the EU is something it's not.

• was to take the vote we had and apply what the majority voted for, having stated that was what government would do.

If we do not leave the EU, then democracy is gone. We set a precedent for votes to be overturned if government does not like the outcome. In my mind, that is the real worry.*

I agree with this. And I am surprised and saddened that so many Remainers value democracy so lightly.

@weeblefeet Re Ireland - see OP's post on page 8 for 'backstop' was a wheeze to put spanner in works and no one's going to put up a border argument.

@chomalungma yes a Dutch person pointed that out to me the other day. That Netherlands, for example, does not have these inequalities, so it is a good point. Ultimately, the key is to increase productivity so earnings grow.

A certain billion pounds a week could be put to better and more efficient use .... if you get my drift

I found another speech to the Bundestag. Weird to hear such concern and support:

Its a very childish level of debate that you don't seem to get in other countries

Yes, the Latvian PM was on the Andrew Marr show this morning in the context of talking about Johnson’s latest “deal” offering, and he was calm, rational, clever, had a full understanding of the facts, and spoke perfect English to boot.

yes a Dutch person pointed that out to me the other day. That Netherlands, for example, does not have these inequalities, so it is a good point. Ultimately, the key is to increase productivity so earnings grow

So your point about us being the 7th largest economy is irrelevant when it comes to how good we are as a country.

We are an unequal country, with deprivation, inequalities, high living costs.

I don't think leaving the EU is going to help with improving that.

A certain billion pounds a week could be put to better and more efficient use .... if you get my drift

A certain billion pounds a week? Do remind me which billion pounds this is. I seem to have forgotten.