To say that the difference between high achievers and low achievers is self discipline?

[equinox32]

Hello,

Was having a discussion with a group of friends recently and the discussion of personality types came up.

I put it out there that the people who are most successful usually have a stand out personality trait, that they are very self disciplined and delay instant gratification for long term goals.

One of my friends got really offended and said that just because people are not successful, it doesn't mean they are lazy. I wasn't actually saying that, but I would say laziness is associated with those with low discipline.

I am lucky enough to mix with a large group of people. My family background is reasonably well off, stable home, but my husband comes from a family which is quite 'working class', constant struggle for money and low level jobs. We both share our social circle and I see a lot of different type of people.

His family, are really quite low disciplined. Lovely people, but they will always choose instant pleasure over saving or waiting. They have no long term outlook, disorganised, useless with money and 'live for the moment'. Since being with my husband, I have come to enjoy some elements of their approach, but most of it frustrates me.

My family are quite different. We were all expected to do chores as we grew up, keep the house tidy, make our beds etc. Takeaway was once a month (not due to lack of funds). Our parents took a great interest in our education. We had pocket money, but if we ran out there would be no more until the next one came along, to teach us the value of money.

So my theory is this. Intellect is one thing, but if you do not have the self discipline required to do the right thing, you won't get as far. If you are of average intellect but highly self disciplined, you will achieve success.

There was an article (trying to find it), that interviewed top CEO's and most of them indicated they have great self-discipline.

Another interesting thing I heard on the radio:

As time goes on, people who are similar end up together and have families. Since self-discipline is linked to higher intellect, the theory is that in a few hundred years you will have two groups. Highly intelligent, self disciplined people and low intelligence and low self discipline people.

Anyway, AIBU? Is self discipline the most important trait for success?

@QualCheckBot I quite agree. No one should be written off but for some people no amount of hard work is going to lead to the kinds of rewards that the op is talking about (and has now abandoned) .

No amount of work and effort will make someone with a borderline IQ a genius.

I work with young women with severe mental health difficulties and complex behavioural issues. Of 9 currently in my service 6 are in education part or full time. One has just started university. They aren't the same as other students in a lot of ways however they are doing the best they can and dealing with the various things that brought them to have mental health difficulties in the first place. The other 3 have severe learning difficulties alongside their MH and are older (40+) so engage in different ways with education and the community vocationally.

I'm incredibly proud of them. I see the worst outcomes childhoods give and try and turn them around but it's exceptionally difficult and can take people years to be in a place where education is even a goal let alone a reality.

Chris Rock does a good bit on children being told they can be anything they want to be.

Some people struggle to succeed because of undiagnosed learning difficulties and asd. The ability to concentrate and apply oneself is not always a matter of simple willpower.

How do we define a high achiever? My dad was a time served tradesman, a blue collar worker. Mum did part time jobs in shops and schools around my education. I went to a state school. They never had a lot of money but everything was budgeted and saved for and besides their mortgage, have never used credit. We had holidays in Wales (and wonderful they were too), there was no spare money for dance lessons and we had second hand bikes. They expected my sister and I to perform well at school. When Dad was made redundant in the 80's he took 6 weeks to get back into work, which involved being away from home every week to work on big building jobs in the south. In that 6 weeks in his desperation for work he secured a job in south africa and had booked a train to London to arrange our visas, when another offer came up. Now whilst they have their own home, they do live on state pension and get by nicely as their needs are simple. They never took risks preferring to provide us with a guaranteed stable environment. When my dad who is now ill looks at his children, grandchildren and soon to be great grandchild, I know he feels his life has been a huge success. And it has.

No, self discipline is a necessary condition for high achievement, but not a sufficient condition. I don't think that one can really achieve highly without self discipline. But even with self discipline, people may not be able to achieve highly if they don't have the opportunity, the support, or the ability. A person living in desperate poverty who has never seen a musical instrument will not become a successful musician; neither will someone who has lots of advantages but is absolutely tone-deaf. Also - what is a 'high achiever'? Some people may not be famous or make lots of money, but be very successful in bringing up their children and maintaining good friendships with others: that is also a high achievement! By contrast one could be very successful as a gang leader, top drug dealer, or a powerful dictator, but that is not really something to aim for.

I don't think that one can really achieve highly without self discipline

I manage it academically. I have no self discipline, everything is last minute but it comes easy to me. I see the same in some of my students.

Helloooo OP.....

Does MNHQ have a spread sheet to show the correlation between threads posted by right-wing OPs and their very recent appearances on this boards?

*echt" or a correlation between a goady poster getting flamed and never coming back to respond. Or someone posting a IABU, everyone deciding they are BU, and never responding.

You'd think the OP on this thread would, with her high intellect and self control would be able to think hugely quickly of corrections, data, references that would confound all the biscuiters. Or she could parse Donald Trump.

This sounds like it would be true. Because of course someone that lies in bed all day is not going to achieve as much as someone who works hard.
Then you look around you are see all the people in high status jobs who are really lazy and have no self discipline , like our own Prime Minister.

@equinox32

Why is it that people who have modestly achieved in life (and that's you by the way, in case you didn't realise) seem to feel the need to constantly "discuss", and tell everyone, just how they've achieved what they have achieved?

I mean I'm genuinely fascinated that people like yourself need to tell everyone about your "sacrifices".

Is it possibly the case that you can't enjoy the fruits of your labour/luck/success without constantly needing to compare yourself to others?

As for me this is a sign of someone who is weak in confidence.

This isn't an "interesting debate" because it's been done to death weekly on here.

Person X says "if person Y saved more and had more discipline they would achieve more".

As if everyone can save, everyone has stable physical and mental health, and best of all, everyone of course has the same linear goals you have and measure success in the same way

I work in the City as I've said before, take home enough to be considered a "success" by you, yet it was overcoming my mental health which was the key factor. Discipline? Why raise it - it's just goady.

YABU, go and enjoy your life

Haven’t read TFT but fuck me this must be a piss take.

Where has OP fucked off to anyway

I think some stupid people sit at their keyboard dreaming up the biggest pile of bull just to wind people up.

Nope, YABU. It's a convenient thing for people to believe in order to blame others for their own misfortune/poverty though (very useful for the government when it comes to targeting those on benefits etc.)

Absolute load of bollocks @equinox32

Qualcheck
This is my opinion. How do you know that I am not speaking from experience?

Your correct based on the fact your looking at one piece of the puzzle... it absolutely will contribute but most certainly will not be effective on its own

Is it self-discipline though, or having a longer term outlook?

DH was offered a job in China for 9 months before we were married. The opportunity was for him only, I couldn't have got a visa even if I wanted to go with him. So we decided that he went because the opportunity would open doors and be a huge boost to his CV. It certainly helped him make the next move in his career.

But lots of friends were shocked that we as a couple would make that decision - how could I bear to let him go? Why would he want to? What if he didn't come back? Oh no, China is far too far away, I could never do that....

Short term pain for long term gain.

Excellent post, @toomuchtooold.

Hello All,

I am the OP, I couldn't access my old account for some reason.

Anyway, I find some of the responses pretty aggressive. Sorry it took me a while to respond, but I have other things to do than sit on mumsnet, probably my self-discipline kicking in again.

The post wasn't goady, and I don't have the time to reply to each and every one of you.

I agree I could have been a bit clearer in my OP. I wasn't talking about self discipline being the only factor, but one of the most important, IMO, the most important.

I should have also said I am talking about if you had two people in the exact circumstances, the person who had self discipline would do far better in life than the person without.

I wasn't even talking about high achievers having money. High achievement means different things to different people.

Self discipline influences everything. From getting up on time in the morning, to doing your studying to get the best grades. From choosing to save money, to going out and splurging on 'living your best life'. It influences if you keep your house clean, or pay your bills.

So I state again, if you have two people in the exact same position, the only difference is their ability to maintain self-discipline, the person who self-discipline would go further.

I suspect many people on here railing at me know they lack self discipline and thus feeling like I am attacking them directly. The truth hurts I know.

Also, no doubt that being privileged does help, but I am sure there are plenty of privilege people out there without self-discipline that do not make the most of their position.

That being said, it is a lot easier to sit there and blame everybody getting a better start in life than you, rather than doing something to improve your own situation.

'I suspect many people on here railing at me know they lack self discipline and thus feeling like I am attacking them directly. The truth hurts I know'.

This is a shame. It was unnecessary, as your post until this point was a well measured response to your critics.

Wow OP that's an amazing "clarification" to your Post.

Many of us who have disagreed with you are also "achievers" as well. I lack the self discipline and physical ability to be a world class athlete yes but despite this I manage to be a useful and successful person in my field.

Wow, judgemental much?

hrmmm. I think I disagree with you OP. Self discipline is important, very important, yes, for living a moral and stable life. A lack of self-discipline (or temperance, as it used to be known) leads to moral turbulence. But temperance was only one of the cardinal virtues, along with fortitude (or courage), prudence and justice. All 4 are required for living a good life - a self-disciplined person who is unjust, or imprudent, will still have a life that has moral chaos in it; these things bleed through; a disordered interior life leads to a disordered exterior life.

However, as you have mentioned, people who are self disciplined do also tend to possess those other virtues, because the moral life is not something we can work on a little at a time; rather like fixing the spokes of a bicycle wheel; either they are all straight, or they are all bent; you can't have one bent and the others straight, or all bent and one straight.

So - in so far as one who is self-disciplined tends to live a moral and ordered life (which includes self discipline) and therefore they tend to 'succeed', then yes I agree. I disagree that temperance is the most important; the cardinal virtues are incommensurable. One cannot supplant the other; they all have different objects and aims and achieve different things within the orchestrated whole of a moral life.

I've read the whole thread now, and I seem to be the only one who got the impression that the OP was worried about reproducing with her husbad because his family is so inferior to hers. Or that their kids aren't doing well enough and she's looking to blame his influence.