To say that the difference between high achievers and low achievers is self discipline?

[equinox32]

Hello,

Was having a discussion with a group of friends recently and the discussion of personality types came up.

I put it out there that the people who are most successful usually have a stand out personality trait, that they are very self disciplined and delay instant gratification for long term goals.

One of my friends got really offended and said that just because people are not successful, it doesn't mean they are lazy. I wasn't actually saying that, but I would say laziness is associated with those with low discipline.

I am lucky enough to mix with a large group of people. My family background is reasonably well off, stable home, but my husband comes from a family which is quite 'working class', constant struggle for money and low level jobs. We both share our social circle and I see a lot of different type of people.

His family, are really quite low disciplined. Lovely people, but they will always choose instant pleasure over saving or waiting. They have no long term outlook, disorganised, useless with money and 'live for the moment'. Since being with my husband, I have come to enjoy some elements of their approach, but most of it frustrates me.

My family are quite different. We were all expected to do chores as we grew up, keep the house tidy, make our beds etc. Takeaway was once a month (not due to lack of funds). Our parents took a great interest in our education. We had pocket money, but if we ran out there would be no more until the next one came along, to teach us the value of money.

So my theory is this. Intellect is one thing, but if you do not have the self discipline required to do the right thing, you won't get as far. If you are of average intellect but highly self disciplined, you will achieve success.

There was an article (trying to find it), that interviewed top CEO's and most of them indicated they have great self-discipline.

Another interesting thing I heard on the radio:

As time goes on, people who are similar end up together and have families. Since self-discipline is linked to higher intellect, the theory is that in a few hundred years you will have two groups. Highly intelligent, self disciplined people and low intelligence and low self discipline people.

Anyway, AIBU? Is self discipline the most important trait for success?

Today 22:55Teddybear45
If all it took was self-discipline to succeed then we wouldn’t see half of the rich people we do in positions of power.
And also, I hate to say it but they might be varying different skin tones 😳 - other than white or orange

Disclaimer, had a couple of glasses of red wine.

Sheltered life, narrow vision type theory OP. My Dad came from a very poor working class family. He got a scholarship to Grammar School then went to University a year early & became a Biochemist. I also taught in a hugely deprived area & many of the children were incredibly bright but had no parental support & were borderline for serious neglect status. I kept in touch with a few of my brightest ones & they've all done incredibly well: the School was outstanding in being a source of support & resources for children & parents alike.

@QualCheckBot, please ignore my last post. I'm just jealous I never actually had the intelligence to study A levels, and my chaotic home life provides the best excuse.

But how will we ever know???

This is why the kids of immigrants often succeed because despite the poverty parents will do anything and everything to ensure their kids don’t need to depend on anyone other thaj themselves

I am a child of immigrants.

My theory is we were so poor the choice was do the minimum and stay where you are or bring in money to get out of the slums

My extended family worked multiple jobs and saved every penny to buy our first house.
None of us children were given anything to help us succeed other than knowing if you want something then you have to work to get it.

And working for someone else long term is not reliable. No matter how hard you work you get paid the same amount as the person next to you who could have dossed around and done the bare minimum

Its never too late Doingtheboxerbeat!

@QualCheckBot, thank you, that's a nice thing to say .

The kind of self-discipline you're talking about, or what yon TED wifie defines as 'grit' (all the long-term-vision/delayed-gratification stuff) is a) generally associated with good mental health, which poverty makes much harder, and b) is sustained/motivated over the longer term by being rewarded; feeling like you're achieving progress, and when you're poor/underprivileged/female, regardless how gritty you are, that ain't necessarily so.

Op try reading the Mexican fisherman story, for me it’s about having balance in my life. I’m not geeedy & I don’t hanker after material possessions. I’m up at 6am to the gym before my full working day starts. I leave see friends play sport & drink a little wine on the weekends, have holidays & spend time with my dds

bemorewithless.com/the-story-of-the-mexican-fisherman/

Here you go

Well misses, when you've worked 40 hours a week for minimum wage, cooked tea (with cheap food - and that's butter or cheese to you)... Not been able to give your kids pocket money or trips or shoes... You have waited soooooooo long for that 'instant gratification' just to literally take a gasp with your nose above water. Misses, when you grew up like this, no pocket money, no trips, just the basics. You can't see any more... What did jarvis crocker say? 'Dance, and drink, and screw. Because there's nothing else to do'.

You're right, priveledge does make life easier, and to keep priveledge, you have to be disciplined, frugal etc.... But when you're broke.... Taking a taxi home with the weekly shop is a spa break misses. A spa break. And when a taxi is a spa break. You are numb. Exhausted. Depressed. Grateful for each moment. I think that hope also is a key to success. The vision of the future that you can see because you have a route out of where you are because you know where you are. You know where you live, where your family homes are, and that you're inheritance factors into your future. You know when your next pocket money is coming in. You can see the future and plan that you want to save for that top.... To go skiing on the school trip.

Discipline is important, for example you could save your dinner money as a child and become a self made millionaire.

But the hope, or the reason that there is more to life than your own experience, the vision, is what is important, because without this, what is discipline for?

Besides, on top of that, success is perspective. You maybe we'll off and independent. But can you sing? Laugh? Do you sweep your doorstep? Do you mow next doors lawn? Do you like your neighbours?

I don't know. Sorry, I'm just jealous of people like you because I'm one of those sad skanky smelly lazy girls that just can't figure it out how to get off the couch and deal with all of this. How to be something better and more 'white collar'.

My kids school makes me want to smoke joints secretly somewhere and hide from the teachers.

We've just had to quit ballet, I was so determined that my daughter would break free from this awful cycle. But we just can't afford to do ballet because we can't drive and also reprioritised the funds.

Thanks for the query and I've needed this rant. I feel empowered. I've given my self a slap. Discipline. Not the only eating beans because you are saving money kind. The only eating beans because that's all there is kind. The no pocket money, not because you've had it, but because there is none kind. And that's normal. You are successful, above average income, congratulations.

'because everybody hates a tourist. Especially one who thinks its all... Such a laugh.

(and the chip station grease, will come out in the bath)

You will never understand
How it feels to live your life.
With no meaning or control.
With nowhere left to go.
You are amazed that they exist.
But they burn so bright and you can only wonder why.'

.... Common people, pulp.

This doesn't apply to you of course because by the sounds of it your dad wouldn't come and get you (but luckily, your partner' s probably would if you found your self in a none chip related sticky situation) ;)

I suppose the OP isn't that widely read. If she had read The Road To Wigan Pier she'd probably never have written that post. Or if she had read more about regression to the mean, she wouldn't have written that astoundingly stupid final paragraph. Not everyone has the opportunity to be educated. OP clearly isn't.

If Boris Johnson is an example of a disciplined personality, I'll go with the alternative. And yet he is the ruler of the queen's na - vee. Pure self-discipline I suppose.

OP, I agree with you.

I do find it interesting what many PP and you appear to define as success, though. It could well be that your husband's family are very successful in their own right.

I teach an incredible variety of students in a difficult shortage subject. Some are never going to be successful in my area, but are still among the most successful students I know. Because they follow what they believe in, their passions, and prioritise accordingly.

I have taught budding dancers, TV personalities, hackers, environmentalists, CEOs in their respective areas, researchers, athletes. Not every one of them did well in my subject - they didn't need to. They had enough understanding to see that my subject may come in handy one day and give it a half-hearted go, but were fully disciplined in prioritising their passions, training, researching their areas and investing in them.

Nothing at all to do with priviledge. One of the most successful people I know is a part-time cleaner and single mum on minimum wage - she has always prioritised her family over money and has occasional financial struggles, but has a huge smile on her face every single day.

One of the least successful people I know is a reasonably high earner on around £40k - adult children, single, so no other financial commitments and with a recent inheritance has more money than she can spend. But boy is she miserable. Hates her job, resents her children, lives for the few days a year she is on holiday in her dream country, but does absolutely nothing to establish a life there, even though she easily could. Finds barriers in everything rather than trying, gives up on everything she doesn't immediately make progress in.

Incidentally, the one person I know in a CEO position on a six-figure salary is only moderately successful. They do enjoy their job, have a hobby they participate in as much as they can, but their passion lies in their hobby and family, neither of which they have enough time for. They have a lifestyle now they cannot change easily for financial reasons.

So YANBU to say that success needs commitment and self-discipline, but YABU to only associate it with wealth and status.

I work hard, have done several courses to improve my family's prospects and have taken on some new challenges too for the same reason.

While money helps, provides a wider scope for "options", I feel I do not need it to feel a sense of success or accomplishment. Only I can give myself that, intrinsically.

I would imagine discipline played a part in katarina thompson- Johnson's success

@pallisers wow do you always see ya urself as well above other people such as they OP?

By any mean, you can disagree but the arrogance and the condescending tone of your post says more about you than it does about the OP.

@SaskiaSaskia and other posters, I agree with you that one very big privilege parents (and teachers?) can give to children is opening them to the possibility of being able ‘to get out’.

I saw it at my dcs state school. Some people were from very deprived areas, others more (lower) MC but most of them shared the same idea that there was no point trying to aim higher than what was just next to them. Same town/place where they’ve always lived, same sort of job, same struggles.
Being given the confidence that you can get out and it’s an ok thing to do (in opposition to ‘better yourself’ with a condescending tone) is what makes a big difference.

(And then you need the determination etc... that the OP was talking about too)

I hate the assumption that because I am in a slightly higher than min wage job by the OP’s assumption I have not had self discipline. I I see this assumption a lot.
You have no idea of the way my life has gone, the qualifications I have that I have been unable to utilise due to redundancy, needing child friendly hours, divorce and the mental health issues that caused. You have no idea of the self discipline I have had to have just to go in each day to face bosses that bullied (1st time the day I left 3 directors individually approached me for the fact they knew what was going on but turned a blind eye and the second time HR approached ME to say that could see what was happening and needed my permission to take it further).
So don’t assume you think I have no self discipline - I’d have sunk years ago if that was the case.

Discipline definitely played a part in my journey out of poverty

@pallisers wow do you always see ya urself as well above other people such as they OP? By any mean, you can disagree but the arrogance and the condescending tone of your post says more about you than it does about the OP

Pallisers is spot on . The OP is generalising from her own family's experience about a mass of people. She is the one who is being condescending and arrogant. Palliser has cited texts and statistical methods than can be Wikipedia'd. If the OP wants to to tangle with social theory then she deserves all the criticism she gets when she gets it wrong, or as in the case of the OP, doesn't understand that anecdotal evidence does not equal data.

I would say having lots of drive, luck , opportunities, confidence, money, privilege and family support all play a part in how successful a person will end up.

I agree in principle.

I’m from a middle class family, had opportunities but no encouragement growing up, I was too lazy to do anything well, I had dancing, music, language and horse riding lessons but dropped out of all when it became difficult, my parents always said if you don’t want to go you don’t have to rather than encouraging me to push on or try harder.

I’m intelligent and did well as school with no effort, never did any revising or put much effort into coursework and came out with average GCSEs & A levels and a 2:2 at an average uni.

Now I’m mid thirties I look back and think if only I’d put some effort in I could have got top grades, gone to a better uni and got a better job but it just fundamentally my personality type.

I do agree that confidence plays a big part in it too, and the opportunities that come your way, you can be as disciplined as you like but if you can’t afford to go to uni or save up or extra tuition for what your good at then you’re already three rungs below everyone else on the ladder before you start.

Well it takes two to tango though doesn't it Vulpine? If the OP doesn't want to be talked down to, it might have been something - what with her having all the resources available to a successful person - for her to have acquainted herself with some of the basic ideas around social (im)mobility before she came on and posted her goady nonsense.

A lot of it is personal circumstances and a strong dose of luck.

Plenty of people try and fail to set up their own businesses etc etc.

And some are lucky, but they won’t see it as luck 😂

I came from a underprivileged background and ended up in foster care.

but I was lucky to have foster parents who encouraged me to go to a decent sixth form and study. Also lucky that my social workers supported them and help push me towards university.

The system was set up to give me a flat at the age of 16, and groom me to learn to live on benefits.

Luck would have it, people around me helped nurture my intelligence.

Without those factors, I could have taken a different path.

I won’t deny, yes I studied, did well in my GCSES, A levels etc but I didn’t study as hard as I could have done 🤷🏻‍♀️

But let’s not fall for the idea that if only poor people worked harder. That absolves you of any responsibility for the system which makes them poor in the first place.

How are we measuring success anyway? One of my mates at school, she was told by the school she was on track to go to university and I remember her confiding in me that there was no way she was going to university because that would mean having to stay for another 4 years with her crazy mother, and she was going to join the navy. Then as we were turning 16 her gran (who had kept an eye on her and her sister) died, and her mother went right off the rails, and she decided to stay on another year at school, get a part time job, and keep an eye on her sister. She did really badly in the exams, probably because of her part time job (20 hours a week in a take away) and possibly also because of waiting up to put her mum to bed... but what really killed her chances in my opinion was whatever balance of thoughts she had at that point that decided her not to go to the navy. First of all, because she didn't want to leave her wee sister alone at her mum's. But then also because when she got her crap exam results she took them as an accurate measure of how clever she was, rather than shrugging it off. I think about somebody like Boris Johnson, failing upwards, that's the difference between them and us. She got a job as a bouncer. She got married, had three kids, got divorced. Well loads of people get married and divorced, there's nothing wrong with working in security, I don't want to write the lassie's life off, do you know what I mean? But does she regret letting that chance pass her by, probably.

I grew up not in a chaotic household but an emotionally abusive one, my mother's batshit mental, both my parents worked in "unskilled"/"semi-skilled" jobs but we had a secure life in the sense that we had a council house and although my dad's work had frequent redundancies, while it lasted it was good money and he had a good pension off of it. So by no means on our uppers, not chaotic, but definitely not well off and not very happy either.

I can't make out if, according to bien-pensant middle class standards, I've been a success or a failure. I got a first class honours degree, a PhD, a good postdoc, and worked as a development scientist for a blue chip pharmaceuticals company for about 10 years. But guess what? I had not realised, when I was at university, that the difference between being a scientist and being a medic or vet or lawyer is that as a scientist, because you don't need a specific UK or EU qualification or professional membership to do your thing, you're exposed to international competition. (That's the sort of thing your mum and dad or your teachers need to tell you, or maybe if you're less naive than me you figure it out from the fact that you went in with 5 As at Higher but all you actually needed was 3 Bs). So when Indian and Chinese firms started to be able to do process development faster and cheaper than we could, we started to get made redundant. I went before I was pushed and got a place on a graduate trainee scheme in a prestigious branch of the UK civil service. Worked away there for a couple of years and then, I had my kids, and then, my husband (who had gone back to uni to retrain as a patent lawyer, he having understood where we went wrong at the same time as I did) lost his job in the UK and we had to come out to Germany which is the only place he could find another job. So you know, my life story is all grit and fucking gumption and a great poster story for the idea that You Can Do It, If You Set Your Mind To It right up to the point where I've just turned 40, I've got two toddlers, I'm in a foreign country and the only jobs I can find are 50-60 hours a week contract positions that are going to all be outsourced to Poland and India by the end of the decade. So I said fuck it and chucked it in. Now, I am a SAHM of school aged children. Sometimes, I don't get dressed until 10 or even 11 o'clock sometimes because they can get themselves to school these days. I play quite a lot of Playstation. I can't work out whether I've made it or fucked it up. Mostly I rely on the fact that, when I was poor, and when I was trying to get out of poverty, I didn't judge the people around me for laziness or lack of grit or whatever, I could recognise the fact that individual circumstances mean that not everybody gets to perform at the maximum of what they are capable of - I'm glad I didn't fall for any of that morality of meritocracy bullshit on the way up, because it would be fucking crucifying me now.