To say that the difference between high achievers and low achievers is self discipline?

[equinox32]

Hello,

Was having a discussion with a group of friends recently and the discussion of personality types came up.

I put it out there that the people who are most successful usually have a stand out personality trait, that they are very self disciplined and delay instant gratification for long term goals.

One of my friends got really offended and said that just because people are not successful, it doesn't mean they are lazy. I wasn't actually saying that, but I would say laziness is associated with those with low discipline.

I am lucky enough to mix with a large group of people. My family background is reasonably well off, stable home, but my husband comes from a family which is quite 'working class', constant struggle for money and low level jobs. We both share our social circle and I see a lot of different type of people.

His family, are really quite low disciplined. Lovely people, but they will always choose instant pleasure over saving or waiting. They have no long term outlook, disorganised, useless with money and 'live for the moment'. Since being with my husband, I have come to enjoy some elements of their approach, but most of it frustrates me.

My family are quite different. We were all expected to do chores as we grew up, keep the house tidy, make our beds etc. Takeaway was once a month (not due to lack of funds). Our parents took a great interest in our education. We had pocket money, but if we ran out there would be no more until the next one came along, to teach us the value of money.

So my theory is this. Intellect is one thing, but if you do not have the self discipline required to do the right thing, you won't get as far. If you are of average intellect but highly self disciplined, you will achieve success.

There was an article (trying to find it), that interviewed top CEO's and most of them indicated they have great self-discipline.

Another interesting thing I heard on the radio:

As time goes on, people who are similar end up together and have families. Since self-discipline is linked to higher intellect, the theory is that in a few hundred years you will have two groups. Highly intelligent, self disciplined people and low intelligence and low self discipline people.

Anyway, AIBU? Is self discipline the most important trait for success?

It's complicated.

It's an important factor, and yes I do think laziness, arrogance, victim complex, entitlement etc hinder the ability to be successful.

But it's not the only factor and in my experience the people who say "it's just about hard work and self discipline" tend to be ones who've had a leg up or two through life but fail to see / choose not to see it

A school friend of mine is very successful, he ownes his own IT company as well as a portfolio of properties and a £100k+ car. He tells everyone all he started with was £10000 but he forgets that he also had his dads contacts as an already successful businessman, a stable home with parents who cared about his education and supported him every step of the way and a job in his dads company if his business didn’t work out. He forgets just how many young people don’t have anything close to this when they are starting out.

Nice job, OP. You did well dropping that goady fucker of a post. You aren't coming back are you?

DH and I are both from poor families, with extremely low levels of literacy, education and achievement, high levels of low-level criminality. Did we just bob up, magically endowed with self-discipline, and get PhDs, when our parents are barely literate? Don’t be silly. We’re not ‘special’.

There was a really good documentary on the BBC a couple of weeks ago that said being an extrovert is a key factor in success. Basically introverts don’t get hired for that first job so they don’t even get the opportunity to be disciplined and hard working because they’re unemployed. And if they get jobs they don’t get promoted because they’re not popular so don’t have friends who give them favours and opportunities.

The second important factor they highlighted was family connections - to get you internships and experiences, and give you a leg up to get that first job.

Actual hard work is only possible if you have a job in the first place.

Yep you’re completely right. Yep. Yes sir!

Of course you might want to look at some neuroscience to back up your argument. Oh hang on...it doesn’t back up your argument at all!

Why are we engaging with this GF?

Emotional intelligence is more important imo

We have a saying in our country, If hard work made one successful, a farm horse will long be president.

You see, it doesn’t always work like that. But your middle class privilege makes you blind to some simple truths. You can work yourself into the ground in a minimum wage job, deny yourself, save pennies, and where will it get you precisely? Not very far, let me tell you.

Because it is not as simple as a bit of self-discipline. Sadly. We won’t have so much young working class talent wasted if anybody could become a barrister and a surgeon. But they don’t. Not through the lack of discipline...

But opportunity - being born into relative wealth equals better chances at success.

@thoughtlessinengland to show her that this:
'I put it out there that the people who are most successful usually have a stand out personality trait, that they are very self disciplined and delay instant gratification for long term goals'. is bollocks!
& this: Anyway, AIBU? Is self discipline the most important trait for success?

I'd be a bleeding millionaire if all it took for success was self discipline.

I think self-discipline can be beneficial when looking at finances. A lack of discipline can mean that someone spends more than they earn no matter what salary.

Of course those who are low earners are far more vulnerable to circumstances beyond their control.

My husband earns more or less double what I do. I had the self discipline to self-fund my masters on a part time basis. He didn’t. Had his work not made him do extra qualifications, he wouldn’t have continued after his degree, he will tell you that.

I very much lack the need for instant gratification. Ffs I work in the environment sector. Half the stuff I’m trying to implement won’t make a sodding difference until I retire. He works for rich people who want the instant gratification of having more money now, so they pay him a bucket load for that to happen.

By the way, we both met at uni and came out with similar grades and are of similar intelligence. Both our dad’s have typically high earning jobs and our mums have more median salaries. The difference is in our personalities and the fact that I wanted to do something I felt had meaning, he wanted money. But in your case, the difference is everything to do with your privilege.

OP opportunity is a great thing. Good housing, loving parents keen on education, good schools, good teachers. Yes someone who doesn't have these things can get through with self discipline but it makes it so much harder. Especially if you're eating out of dustbins because your parents are screwed up.

As time goes on, people who are similar end up together and have families. Since self-discipline is linked to higher intellect, the theory is that in a few hundred years you will have two groups. Highly intelligent, self disciplined people and low intelligence and low self discipline people.

ffs. Self discipline is not linked to higher intellect. And there are studies which show intellect goes to the median - so if you are two intellectually bright, high achieving parents, your children may not be. But they might achieve more in their way and have more happiness than you do as a super achiever and contribute more to their community.

You are quite right OP. The two groups will be the Eloi and the Morlocks.

Yes, you are being not only unreasonable but bigoted.
You’re basically sneering at poor people by saying anyone with average intellect + self discipline will succeed. So by your view a poor person is either stupid or lazy, but probably both.
At the same time you are so sure of your superiority in both intellect and self discipline.
That’s bigoted. You give no allowance for privilege, luck, opportunity, etc which have more impact on life chances than intellect and discipline.

You’re arguments about Families and intellect is morally bankrupt and smacks of eugenics. There is no science in your theory because geneticists have already proved that intellect is not inheritable in the way you think.

I have to agree OP, I see it in my 15 year old.
irrespective of having two siblings raised exactly the same, with the same support, encouragement and upbringing.

The difference is my 15 year old is very dedicated and single minded disciplined, already started her career, and won't let anything stand in her way. If it isn't doing her some good, she doesn't get involved, that can include missing out socially.

In my family and social circle I am the least disciplined (biggest procrastinator ever, leave everything to the last minute and ‘wing it’ most of the time ), frequently berated for being hopelessly late, disorganized, scatty etc.....and yet I am by far the most successful (in terms of career and salary) in the past 2 generations of my family.

However, for all the self discipline in one area, GCSE's just aren't happening and the intelligence just isn't there. So I don't agree with your intelligence comment, mine has learning difficulties and will be lucky to pass two GCSE's.

So many things go into being successful, OP (and btw, "successful" can mean more than financially--I'm just sayin').

Privilege, stable home life, luck (or chance, more specifically), contacts, health (physical and mental) Yes, hard work and perseverance helps, but it isn't the only thing or even the main thing.

Lovely people, but they will always choose instant pleasure over saving or waiting. They have no long term outlook, disorganised, useless with money and 'live for the moment'.

Many people who live very close to the edge, or hand to mouth financially realize at a certain point that saving isn't going to work for them. Their lives are too precarious. Work very hard for months to save up a couple of hundred pounds and boom! it's gone. The car breaks down, someone in the family has an emergency and needs help, medical care (if you are in the U.S.). There is always, always going to be something coming up that is going to wipe out that small amount of money that has been so carefully saved. In that instance, immediate gratification actually makes sense. Otherwise you will never save enough to have some small pleasure in life. I'm not saying this is true of your in-laws or certainly not of all people living financially precarious lives, but it is true for some.

Very privileged and actually an ignorant view op.

Where is your high intelligence?

A child's ability to regulate emotion and delay gratification at age three is a good predicter academic success. Those skills correlate strongly with socio economic status and maternal education.

Self discipline does matter but it is not a superior personality trait. It is privilege.

If you only get enough money each month for bills and food, and nothing else, you tend not to develop financial planning skills because you don't have the wherewithal for planning. You might become skilled at sniffing out a bargain on the reduced pile if you're lucky enough to live near a decent supermarket, but you don't get things like interest free credit on larger purchases, and if your income isn't steady or reliable (often the case with gig or seasonal work) then you don't have the security to plan your spending; you can only use what you have.

'Self-discipline' is an unhelpful concept if talked about as if it's a magical power that everyone 'has' (and are worthless and lazy and rubbish if they don't 'find' it in themselves, however the hell they're supposed to do that. Magic wand anyone?)

I'd go further than this and contend that 'self-discipline' and its identical twin 'willpower' don't actually exist, or not as a resource. At best they are a process or series of successful internalised routines that happen to team well with external demands. Where there's a mismatch between demands and process, or one of the many steps in the process breaks down (for emotional, physical or social reasons), 'self-discipline' instantly evaporates.