To get my 3 year old baptised in an attempt to get into a Catholic school

[nestisflown]

AIBU on two levels:

1. to want to baptise my 3 year old and start attending local mass weekly in order to get into one of the best schools in the area (and our closest school, although the next closest secular school is also an excellent one). Is this morally dubious? Or do lots of parents do the same?

1. to think that my transparent plan will work and help my child get a place even though we'll have been attending mass for less than a year by the time applications are made...and the applications want proof of "sustained weekly attendance". It doesnt define sustained though

My reasons for wanting my child to go to Catholic school are: (1.) It is a great school academically; (2) it's our closest school; (3) it's the only good faith school close to us (there's a CofE school but it's doesn't perform well academically), and as a non-Catholic but practising Christian, I'd quite like to see faith incorporated into my child's school day...even in a different denomination.

Has anyone done this? Has anyone succeeded?

"To me, education is the most important thing" (OP)

But is eduction only about academic achievements? Or is it also about learning morals, ethics, values, honesty etc...?

Rafals this was a couple of years ago. The person who told me was a regular church goer but couldn't go as often for a few months (change in shifts) but the priest signed because they knew that before/otherwise they went regularly.
Disadvantaged area too so I think they probably were meant to take into account extenuating circumstances like shift workers or disabilities (you'd hope so anyway?)

I guess it depends on how the individual school/parish words things? 'usually attends' vs 'has attended' etc.

I can see how in other circumstances it can be dodgy though!

But is eduction only about academic achievements? Or is it also about learning morals, ethics, values, honesty etc...?

education is also about questioning the inherent biases of the systems you’re working within and challenging them.

Or at least it should be

I think it's a bit naughty IMHO.....we all want the best for our kids but I do disagree with getting kids baptised just to get in a school.

Ha! Totally read number 2 as your "trans parent plan' OP 🤣

As you were.

I'm fairly nice and normal. Promise I'm just a parent who can't afford independent school but wants to give my child the best possible opportunities.

Catholic faith schools are nothing like private schools, believe me. You sound like a parent who just doesn't want their PFB mixing with the 'great unwashed'. It's a very misguided view that various parents seem to subscribe to and then learn better from later.

RafaIsTheKingOfClay, the point I was trying to make is that practising Catholics are generally happy to support Catholic organisations (and, of course, many non-Catholic organisations, but that wasn't my point) on the sort of background assumption that while I personally may not use every service I contribute to, I'm contributing to the Catholic community as a whole and also receive support from it, when needed. It's part of what builds up the Body of Christ. Where it breaks down is, for example, the parish charges X for a first communion/confirmation class and Y is the shortfall in what it actually costs to run the course, which is taken from the parish funds. Now people don't have a problem with that if the children in the class are from practising families, because those families will have been contributing to parish funds as their means allow, and in non-financial ways will be supporting and participating in the life of the parish. Where people get annoyed is where the shortfall is being met by the parish, but the majority of children are from families who don't attend Mass and therefore don't contribute, financially or otherwise, i.e. who deliberately absent themselves from the communion. So the people who do practise are subbing people who don't. Same for schools: happy to contribute as a parish if it's part of a Catholic community and the kids are part of the Church family, much less so if we're subbing other people's kids' education and our own miss out.

Independently of whether it's right or not, it's obvious that people will be more inclined to contribute if it's for their own community. And there's reasonable theological grounds to argue that it is right. The centrality of the theology of the Church as the Body of Christ, for example, and the horizontal as well as vertical communion (i.e. necessity of relationship with other Christians as well as personal relationship with God) is one of the defining characteristics of the Catholic as opposed to Reform churches.

@LaurieMarlow But would you really be challenging those biases in a discussion with a 4 year old? Eg 4 year old comes home and says "mummy today we learnt (insert Catholic doctrine Op disagrees with"). "It's ok darling, just unlearn that one, that's not really what we believe, we just have to pretend to in order to beat the system and for you to attend this school". How does the 4 year old then decide which topics should and shouldn't be listened to in school and, indeed, is it ok for them to express to the teachers mummy's view that they're just pretending to be regularly practicing Catholics? Or does Mummy tell the child that they need to lie about the fact that they're lying about being one?

My children go to a catholic school and we didn't need to attend church before they started (I'm not catholic but husband is) but we've made up for it now we're never out the place 😭 is it definitely a better school than the others? Being a catholic school doesn't necessarily mean it's a good one and it's a huge commitment to say you'll carry on going. Our school has a number of children who aren't catholic not many but some do get places so maybe look into that if you're purely getting them baptised just for a place at the school.

But would you really be challenging those biases in a discussion with a 4 year old?

Obviously you help them challenge when it’s age appropriate.

Any non believer runs the risk that their child takes the religion bit more seriously than they’d like them to.

I’d advocate not too much ‘explanation’ at first, then when they’re older being open with the child about parental beliefs.

If the school hear about that then so fucking what? I doubt they have any grounds to chuck them out.

Living by what you want rather than values and morals.

Can you explain to me the morals of some children getting preferential access to a third of state-funded schools and equal access to the rest, knowing that the impact tends to be displacing from local education children from less advantaged backgrounds and children with SEN?

You won't get judgements and homophobia in a state Catholic school, whoever suggested that. Not in this day and age. Everything is relatively liberal.

There's nothing wrong in anyone asking God to forgive their sin surely, if they believe in God? Plenty of people do that who are not Catholic or who are not Christian in any form. At least it shows they know they're not perfect and want to do better.

@Fink yes I was uninformed and naive and paid the price. Nepotism and favouritism was rife. I do not feel the staff employed were the best teachers but were the most Catholic. I had expected it to be basically a state school with hymns and grace before lunch (which is how I remember my C of E school, through my rose-coloured spectacles) but instead it was a bloody cult. I regret it. I would just like to warn others so that they go into this with their eyes open. I didn't understand people who said Faith schools are wrong and divisive but I totally get it now. I've done a U-turn and will stand up and admit my complete change of heart.

@Moomin8
Your experience sounds very similar to mine. quite bizarre when I look back at it.

My kid goes to a catholic school. We are not religious, quite a few children at the school are not catholic. They expect respect of the ethos and to do 2 hours of religious studies a week, apart from that it doesn't seem too pushy, although we are fairly new. My mum went to catholic school, so did my aunts and uncles. My dp went to catholic school too. None of them are catholic now
As for all the ways people use to get into a preferred choice, i think that's neutral really.

I disagree with lots of the Catholic beliefs and practises  I am happy to show my face and nod and smile but couldn't actively participate in the indoctrination of children in beliefs I only 50% hold.*

WTAF??

Why would you do this? Leave the space at the catholic school for someone who believes in it.

My two sons go to a Catholic primary school.

We are not Catholic but we didn't pretend to be either, there aren't enough Catholics in the area.

I don't say outright that I do not believe some of what they talk about over dinner but I do say that's what Catholic's believe but not everyone does think that and no one really knows as there is no proof. If asked what I think I say I'm not sure (I'm an atheist in reality) and like to keep an open mind.

I don't feel this is hypocritical and it doesn't not support their school whilst providing another view.

My son has SEN and the school couldn't have been more supportive. For that I am truly grateful as he is thriving. They are gaining a great moral compass and all of the events in school time are lovely, we attend, support them and join in. It really does feel like a big family.

We don't attend church on weekends though but we don't pretend to either.

I go to church (non catholic) but I couldn't put my kids in a Catholic school because I just don't agree with most of what the faith decrees. If you have just as good a school nearby that is non Catholic, I would go for that.

@deepflatflyer yes sadly I'm not surprised. There are definitely 'types' of schools that seem to be run a certain way. Catholic indoctrination is not what prospective parents ought to worry about. The cute little assemblies with themes about God are harmless enough, moving even.

The possibility of a rather corruptly run organisation that becomes increasingly obvious, the longer your child is there is more sinister.

I’d do it. You’ll probably need more evidence of mass attendance that one year. Usually it’s 3 years.

I've just reported this post as it's seriously offensive to catholics

@LaurieMarlow "the religious bit" is actually quite a big "bit", though, no? It's not like you're talking about a minor topic that gets covered during one term but rather the entire foundation of the school...

In terms of the "so f*cking what" view re the school finding out you've lied about being Catholic - would you genuinely feel no remorse for this after insisting that you were a genuinely practicing Catholic in order to get in, only to later turn around and say not only are you not, but that you actually disagree with some of these beliefs?

These are genuine, rather than rhetorical or judgemental questions, by the way. The only primary in my area to have received an Ofsted outstanding is also the only Catholic one so there are plenty of people I know who have 'converted' in order to get in so I'm intrigued as to their thought processes. This is actually the main thing that puts me off it, personally - the fact that half the people there are willing to be disingenuous more so than the fact that it's teaching Catholic beliefs.

As a completely hypothetical question, would those who take the stance that whilst they're not Catholic themselves but are willing to pretend to be so because they feel that school offers the best academically also apply the same thinking if their only local outstanding state school was of another faith they didn't ascribe to, such as Jewish or Muslim?

@glsgow107 for fucks sake, grow up

Admissions criteria for faith schools can vary widely. In my local area the only Catholic secondary school is rated outstanding so is massively oversubscribed, it has Catholic partner primary schools and baptised Catholics from these partner primaries get priority in their admissions criteria. Due to this the local Catholic Diocese has advised priests to look carefully at all "late" baptisms requests from parents.

Parishes will obviously vary but if an area has popular, well performing Catholic schools it can be quite a lengthy process to complete as priests are seeing a rise in disingenuous requests such as yours. Generally a priest would expect to see regular attendance before a later baptism request was made and would prefer that at least one parent was already a practicing Catholic. If they weren't they would most likely prefer a parent to also become baptized to support the child's religious learning.

Practising Catholic here who finds your posts offensive.