To get my 3 year old baptised in an attempt to get into a Catholic school

[nestisflown]

AIBU on two levels:

1. to want to baptise my 3 year old and start attending local mass weekly in order to get into one of the best schools in the area (and our closest school, although the next closest secular school is also an excellent one). Is this morally dubious? Or do lots of parents do the same?

1. to think that my transparent plan will work and help my child get a place even though we'll have been attending mass for less than a year by the time applications are made...and the applications want proof of "sustained weekly attendance". It doesnt define sustained though

My reasons for wanting my child to go to Catholic school are: (1.) It is a great school academically; (2) it's our closest school; (3) it's the only good faith school close to us (there's a CofE school but it's doesn't perform well academically), and as a non-Catholic but practising Christian, I'd quite like to see faith incorporated into my child's school day...even in a different denomination.

Has anyone done this? Has anyone succeeded?

I don’t think the system is stacked in my favour.

Then you're being willfully blind. You have more and better options than others. In what sense is that not stacked?

“People of no faith get to send their children to schools that teach no faith.”

Well they don’t, actually. All state schools have a statutory requirement to have daily collective worship of a “broadly Christian nature. And conpulsory RE to GCSE which is very often focuses more on Christianity than any other faith. And Christian prayers are routine in many primary schools. Religion should be for families. They have 18 other hours in the day to teach their faith.

People of no faith get to send their children to schools that teach no faith.

Nope. Lots of us are stuck with our children at faith schools as they were the only available option. Some people would say I should quit my job/move house/start a free school instead of shrugging at the annoyance and sending my child to what is at least a reasonably local school. But most of us live in the real world.

The other point is that people of no faith don't get priority at those schools. Children of Catholics and Anglicans get priority at a third of schools (between them) and equal access to the rest. Pretending the system isn't stacked in your favour is just silly. At least own it.

“I don’t think the system is stacked in my favour. I think the system is doing its best to provide for people of different views and beliefs, and the OP is taking the piss”
I agree that the OP is taking the piss. But how is the system not stacked in your favour when you have a choice of of 30% more schools and can gazump a family who live next door to a school you have to drive to?

I think the system is doing its best to provide for people of different views and beliefs, and the OP is taking the piss.

Again, it's not. It's providing for children of Anglicans and Catholics for historical reasons and because it's currently the cheapest path of least resistance.

It is not doing its best to cater to atheists, Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs or Jews, or people of any other faiths. It isn't doing its best to cater to people not of the two majority Christian sects where they don't have a non-faith local school.

It's simply a relic of a different time when the social and religious fabric of the country was radically different.

I haven't RTFT so apologies if this is covered- but there is no such thing as "secular" schools in the UK.

State schools are required to provide an act of worship that is broadly Christian in nature. (Or at least they were a few years back when we were doing primary applications.)

What this means in practice can vary widely between schools. The ethos of a state part can be very Christian and you will only know this by visiting the school and asking questions or by asking parents of DC at the school.

In fact, there is no requirement for religious schools to provide religious worship- It's assumed they do. But it's possible that a "non-demominational" school might be more religious in ethos than a neighbouring CofE school. (Not massively likely I suspect but possible. I'm sure someone on MN had an example of this a while back).

An example - where I am, there are two local infant schools, both with a good reputation and Good Ofsted reports.

One teaches the children Christian hymns to sing at assembly, gets the DC to say Grace at lunch and has close ties with the local church.

The other does none of the above (although it does have a lovely carol service in the church at Christmas). When I asked them how they dealt with the requirement for worship, they told me they teach the children about morality in general terms and that sometimes they do things like get the children to close their eyes and think about "wonder and awe".

As a committed atheist I chose the second school. The other was way too religious for us. But sounds like it might suit you OP?

Have you visited your local non-demominational school? If not I strongly suggest you do, and ask them about how they deal with religious worship and how much Christian practice happens at the school.

They have fewer options.

In what way do secular people have fewer options? Around 68% of state schools in England are secular, 10% are Catholic. People who want a secular education have a vastly larger choice available to them than people who want a Catholic education. Your assumption in saying they have 'fewer options' is that people who want a Catholic education for their children would also be happy with a secular education, for many practising Catholics that is simply not the case.

Why should the state provide a Catholic education?

In what way do secular people have fewer options?

Because one third of schools in the UK are faith schools. They don't have priority in these.

The rest are non faith, but they don't have priority in these either, they have equal priority with those of faith.

Isn't that fairly obvious.

Why should the state provide a Catholic education?

Exactly this.

BertrandRussell

Because it provides a secular education.

I have a Muslim friend who sends her DC to the local Catholic school (they reserve something like 10% of their spaces for the local community) rather than a non-demominational school as she'd rather he have some religious education than none, even if it was the "wrong" religion.

I found that really interesting, especially as it challenged my assumptions - I assumed she'd prefer the non-demominational school over a Catholic school. (But I'm not religious so maybe it seems more obvious to those who are?)

JassyRadlett

We’ll have to agree to disagree. I am not here to debate this anyway. The OP asked if she is being unreasonable and I think she is.

Because it provides a secular education

No it doesn't. All non-demominational schools are expected to provide an act of worship that's broadly Christian in nature. That's not secular.

(Or at least they did until recently. We're past primary admissions age, possible this has changed).

Because it provides a secular education.

Secular is and should be the default.

The state doesn’t provide catholic social care, healthcare, legal systems, broadcasting, infrastructure, etc.

@womanontheedgeoftime

It's interesting isn't it! I learned from Muslim parents of students at my last school that to then any religious faith was better than none... The only religious stance they really abhorred was atheism.

Secular is and should be the default.

Which is your privilege talking, isn’t it? I simply disagree, and you won’t change my mind.

womanontheedgeoftime

Sorry: in which case, should say, it provides an almost secular education that still recognises CofE as the national default. Which is fine by me. But I am also happy that it provides the education I would consider for my child.

Which is your privilege talking, isn’t it?

Is it?

How could we possibly provide faith specific public services, across all areas, to everyone in a way that was fair and easily administered? I’d love to see you proposal for this.

Your assumption in saying they have 'fewer options' is that people who want a Catholic education for their children would also be happy with a secular education, for many practising Catholics that is simply not the case.

But that is a choice not available to others.

If a Catholic parent wished to send their child to a community school they would have equal access to all other local people. When a large number of church-attending parents at my son’s school decided after a bad Ofsted report that they preferred different, non-faith schools, they had equal access to those schools (and then complained vociferously when the new, better Ofsted report came out just after applications closed).

The converse is not true. This is the provision of a taxpayer-funded service. Access should be as equitable and non-discriminatory as possible.

LaurieMarlow

I have no proposal. As a Catholic, there are very few schools I can consider for my child. That’s not something in my power to change.

What is really funny here, is that a fair number of Catholics seem not to mind, ah come on in, yes we’re all a bit lapsed or not so good in our faith, but those who are Atheist seem to think it’s morally awful? It’s OK, even if you do displace a “real” Catholic child, surely that child would be going to Mass every week and praying at home anyway? School is just an add on to the church community. Surely we should be opening the faith out to newcomers but hopefully they explore whether the reality is their cup of tea or not before they sign up for 7 years.

OK. Let’s reorganize things so that if you want a faith school for your child you are only allowed to apply for faith schools. If you don’t get in then you take whatever places are left once the first allocation is over.

It wouldn't work for our local Catholic school. People we know who have sent their kids there had them baptised as babies, you have to as it is so wildly over-subscribed. Also as PP have said, Catholic schools are a different beast to CofE schools. It's hard core Catholicism from the off. My DC goes to a non-religious school and they learn about all religions in a balanced way.

Have you visited your local non-demominational school? If not I strongly suggest you do, and ask them about how they deal with religious worship and how much Christian practice happens at the school.

Thanks @womanontheedgeoftime I'll do this. I've got a visit booked for next month. I didn't realise secular schools can still or even have to incorporate faith/ worship into daily school life. If that's the case, I don't mind but it must make things tricky for atheists when choosing schools.