To get my 3 year old baptised in an attempt to get into a Catholic school

[nestisflown]

AIBU on two levels:

1. to want to baptise my 3 year old and start attending local mass weekly in order to get into one of the best schools in the area (and our closest school, although the next closest secular school is also an excellent one). Is this morally dubious? Or do lots of parents do the same?

1. to think that my transparent plan will work and help my child get a place even though we'll have been attending mass for less than a year by the time applications are made...and the applications want proof of "sustained weekly attendance". It doesnt define sustained though

My reasons for wanting my child to go to Catholic school are: (1.) It is a great school academically; (2) it's our closest school; (3) it's the only good faith school close to us (there's a CofE school but it's doesn't perform well academically), and as a non-Catholic but practising Christian, I'd quite like to see faith incorporated into my child's school day...even in a different denomination.

Has anyone done this? Has anyone succeeded?

Haven’t rtft but I got as far as this and it made me chuckle:

Re (3), I guess my opinion will likely change once I've researched more about (1) And (2) but I guess in my head I was justifying it as not "true" baptism, but rather a symbol of parental willingness for future commitment to the faith- since a child that young can't be baptised in the true biblical sense.

I believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins...

At the very least if you want to find out what being Catholic might mean, you could read the creed given as you would have to recite this, in full, every Sunday! 😂

YABU
Playing the system is a shitty thing to do.

Stop getting sucked in by Stats and have a real unbiased look at all the schools.

Do they do booster classes for their SATS- if they really are a good school
They won't need to.

We went for a small school that had excellent ofsted and results.
My eldest had the following g patchy teaching
NQT- nice but not brilliant , couldn't recongnise which kids to push etc.
Job share- went in to that year at the same level they came out at, total lack of teaching ability, testing on wrong spellings etc.
Good teacher - for a few kids terrible for any that didn't quite fit her teaching g style, no ability to adapt.
Year3 they had several teachers and a SEN child who arrived in mainstream but couldn't cope and behaved violently, they whole year was about that child.

Basically great school but overall not great teaching.

Do more research

"@Jass If you think that religious discrimination against four year olds in access to public services is a good idea, and you’re fine with social and religious segregation of children then yes, I think if you start pontificating about what’s moral and what’s not then you are a hypocrite."

But I don't agree with them being discriminated against at all, nor do I believe in social and religious segregation, which is exactly why I wouldn't send my child to a Catholic school and thus support it. They absolutely should not exist as state funded schools. Would they, I wonder, if there didn't appear to be such a demand from all the 'Catholic' families who suddenly pop up when their child turns 3?

Someone also asked how you actively make the other, secular schools improve. Precisely by sending your child there, especially if you genuinely believe that your child is clever, a rounded individual etc etc. My BiL teaches at a rough and not academically great inner city London school. A very well-known author sends his bright and lovely son there and I have such immense respect for that. He could easily afford private school yet recognises the importance of diversity in every sense of the word and that his son benefits from a well rounded experience whilst other children and staff benefit from all the qualities this child also has to offer. As a parent, I'd personally prefer my child to be rubbing up against those values.

My son goes to a catholic school,he is baptised Catholic and also went to a Catholic primary school,contrary to popular belief in number not all Catholic schools are overly religious ,not , all Catholic schools insist you have to have your child baptisec. Before the age of six months etc, his school is better performing than other local school,s and it's smaller ,we live in a deprived area some other local.schools are really shit ,and have awful bullying ,people do the best they can for their kids ,unfortunately not all state schools are equal.

On mumsnet not number!

Playing the system is a shitty thing to do.

Being disadvantaged by the system is a shitty position to be in.

I’m friends with a Catholic priest who actually has no qualms about parents doing this. From the churches point of view it can only be positive that the child is being baptised, is attending mass and is going to have a Catholic education.

You do need to consider if you are happy about that catholic education though and how you will manage your child being taught things you don’t believe in.

Someone also asked how you actively make the other, secular schools improve. Precisely by sending your child there, especially if you genuinely believe that your child is clever, a rounded individual etc etc.

In theory, great.

In practice, no fucking way am I taking a big risk like that over something as important as my child’s education.

@Mangoandbroccoli I was responding specifically to the idea that it wasn’t hypocritical to condemn people as immoral for wanting to get their kid into a good local school while participating in the system that creates the discrimination in the first place. Sorry if I misread your post.

I would really love to be able to send my kids to a non-faith school. But the other side of the ridiculousness of faith schools in the state sector is that I, like many others, don’t have a choice. So I’m an atheist with a kid being indoctrinated into the Christian faith, sponsored by the state.

I’d prefer a neutral playing field for all kids, that doesn’t give special treatment to Christians and gives equal space and weight to all faiths and none.

I haven’t reported you. I think you’re offensive, and I think you’re a hypocritical liar, but there we are. And yes, you are, in my opinion, very disrespectful towards my faith. You can have whatever view you like of that, but I don’t find it funny personally.

@LaurieMarlow Again, it depends on what you want most out of their eduction. Hanging out with people because they achieve top results but are ok with lying about their beliefs? Or hanging out with people who might not be as naturally gifted in the core subjects that Ofsted prefers but who might be great in other areas and hold strong principles?

@PugPops, That's exactly the problem that we've been discussing (with other themes) for the past 350 posts. Some Catholic priests will happily go along with this, for a variety of reasons - some don't think the system is fair, some don't believe in turning away anyone from baptism, some don't think it should be their role to police school admissions etc. The point is that it's not their children who are being disadvantaged, either by not getting the Catholic education their parents desire, or by attending a sub-standard secular school because they're not Catholic. The priests who are willing to cheat the system aren't the ones affected by it.

And for those people saying there should be no faith-based education, well, I can only disagree on that. I think people of faith have the same right to educate their children within their principles as people of no faith, and if the state is going to provide for one group, they should provide for the other. Religion isn’t separable from how you educate your children, in my opinion. Not really concerned what everyone else thinks about that. I am more concerned with the hypocrisy and disrespect shown here by the OP.

Oops, silly me. I forgot that Mumsnet has some irrational dislike of faith schools.

Again, it depends on what you want most out of their eduction. Hanging out with people because they achieve top results but are ok with lying about their beliefs? Or hanging out with people who might not be as naturally gifted in the core subjects that Ofsted prefers but who might be great in other areas and hold strong principles?

Agreed. Academics are very important to me, but the overall ethos and approach of the school would factor in my decision.

I would have no qualms whatsoever about 'lying' or associating with others who 'lie' in the context of a fucked up system.

@seaweedandmarchingbands I'm not sure that people are saying no faith-based schools as much as no state faith-based schools. As this is where it's a case that everyone pays for them but only some are allowed to go there.

Why is it irrational to think that it’s wrong for people of faith to have a choice of a third more star funded schools than people without faith? It seems perfectly rational to me!

Mangoandbroccoli

I know. The reality is that nearly all schools in this country were once highly religious institutions. The compromise we have come to in this country is that the State does indeed fund schools that teach within particular faiths, and does so for all faiths. It would be just as contentious to say the State would not fund education within faiths, and probably a lot of trouble would come of that, as it has in the past when we were less tolerant of the differences people have when it comes to religion. But I am not interested in that. I wouldn’t mind the OP sharing your view. I mind that she is a hypocrite and a liar.

Religion isn’t separable from how you educate your children, in my opinion.

Yet that's how it is in many countries and it seems to work well.

I am more concerned with the hypocrisy and disrespect shown here by the OP.

There's lots of hypocrisy going on here from lots of quarters.

The hypocrisy of those the system favours taking the moral highground over those who don't without acknowledging their privilege.

The hypocrisy of the many parishes who turn a blind eye to this kind of attendance because they're delighted to get numbers up.

The hypocrisy of practicising catholics, giving out about posters like the OP not having catholic 'beliefs' when they privately disagree with aspects of catholic teaching.

The hypocrisy of the government in facilitating church influence in education for an easy life.

At least the OP is being relatively upfront.

And for those people saying there should be no faith-based education, well, I can only disagree on that. I think people of faith have the same right to educate their children within their principles as people of no faith, and if the state is going to provide for one group, they should provide for the other.

But that right doesn't currently exist. For Catholics and Church of England adherents, it's something of a lottery - is there a school that matches your faith nearby. For people of other Christian sects and other faiths they do not get that provision.

I agree with you that if the state is going to provide for one group, they should provide the same for all groups. I can't see how that is remotely practicable, so the most equitable solution is a level playing field for all. State education that does not take a position on the question of faith. That educates about all religions, but does not indoctrinate.

Religion isn’t separable from how you educate your children, in my opinion.

People in many other countries manage without state-funded faith schools, with far higher rates of religious observation than in this country. Food for thought.

I get that the system is currently stacked in your favour and it's comfortable to think that it's the only way to operate, and uncomfortable to reflect on the impact of that on other people.

LaurieMarlow

I don’t see it as a hypocrisy at all. People of no faith get to send their children to schools that teach no faith. 🤷🏻‍♀️ And what works in other countries isn’t my concern. This is the compromise we have evolved.

People of no faith get to send their children to schools that teach no faith.

They have fewer options. How is that right and fair?

And the options are, for a multitude of reasons, generally worse.

I'm catholic. Like many a bit lapsed. I would t think twice about what you plan to do and neither would many others. I haven't sent my children to a catholic school as it happens but I do consider myself to be catholic so therefore think the school should be open to my family (if there is enough space). Attending regular mass isn't the only criteria.

I don’t think the system is stacked in my favour. I think the system is doing its best to provide for people of different views and beliefs, and the OP is taking the piss.