To get my 3 year old baptised in an attempt to get into a Catholic school

[nestisflown]

AIBU on two levels:

1. to want to baptise my 3 year old and start attending local mass weekly in order to get into one of the best schools in the area (and our closest school, although the next closest secular school is also an excellent one). Is this morally dubious? Or do lots of parents do the same?

1. to think that my transparent plan will work and help my child get a place even though we'll have been attending mass for less than a year by the time applications are made...and the applications want proof of "sustained weekly attendance". It doesnt define sustained though

My reasons for wanting my child to go to Catholic school are: (1.) It is a great school academically; (2) it's our closest school; (3) it's the only good faith school close to us (there's a CofE school but it's doesn't perform well academically), and as a non-Catholic but practising Christian, I'd quite like to see faith incorporated into my child's school day...even in a different denomination.

Has anyone done this? Has anyone succeeded?

I have no proposal

Of course you don’t.

The status quo privileges you and you have no interest in questioning it or understanding why others might have to take more radical action to simply be on a level playing field with you.

Because it provides a secular education.

Firstly, secular isn’t the opposite of religious.

Secondly, it doesn’t really.

Thirdly, this logic only holds if the state is also providing education in the right ratios to Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, Jews, other faiths and atheists. Which it doesn’t.

Catholics and Anglicans get special treatment. Whether it’s right or wrong is a debate (I have a clear view that it is immoral) but it’s a simple fact that Catholics and Anglicans get preferential treatment in the education system.

JassyRadlett

I don’t think secular is the opposite of religious. I think I want my child to be educated in my faith. And I think the State is doing what it can to support that. I agree it needs to do more. What I cannot do, is agree that the OP lying and denigrating my religion at the same time will ever be acceptable to me. It won’t.

LaurieMarlow

The OP is more than on a level playing field. She can send her child to any one of the local CofE schools, or a Catholic school if she is prepared to lie about it. I can’t. I need to send my child to a Catholic school. I don’t care if you don’t see why that is. That’s your prejudice.

couldn't actively participate in the indoctrination of children in beliefs I only 50% hold.

And I'm happy for them to be indoctrinated by an excellent but Catholic school, as I'd be teaching them at home

To be fair @nestisflown you have contradicted yourself here and you don't sound too clear. In any case, in your shoes I would seriously consider what the "indoctrination" looks like that you'd be having to spend all that time and effort undo-ing at home.

I was a teacher in a Catholic secondary school for 4 years, (before finally having enough despite the wonderful kids) and as recently as 2017 I can tell you these are some examples of the "indoctrination" I witnessed:

• only unprotected sex between a man and a woman referred to as "natural", and everything else as "unnatural", routinely as part of PSHE and mentoring and by the school nurse
• tampax removed from girls' puberty kits handed out by NHS visitor
• a handful of female pupils fell pregnant and were silently "managed" out of the school- teachers told they had moved away, parents visited by SLT and told in no uncertain terms that it was their daughter's Catholic duty to keep the baby and not return to school
• one year 7 pupil whose brother completed suicide asked her RE teacher what had happened to him, to be told he was now "in purgatory"
• homophobic suggestions within the curriculum made routinely by staff, gay teachers encouraged to hush their married status by using Ms instead of Mrs

These were only a few things I can recall. I for one would NEVER want my child routinely exposed to this damaging narrative.

Also, you have to remember that the majority of teachers will be Catholics and be unwilling to question or openly contradict such practices, which is what I witnessed. Also many of the older longest serving teachers may be extremely "hardcore" Catholics - they are entitled to their views, but do you really want your child's class teacher whom they see every day to be holding those views?

I need to send my child to a Catholic school.

Of course you don't, that's ridiculous.

What would you do if you lived in France for example?

seaweedandmarchingbands

I know
Look my whole family were Vicars and seeing and hearing how people behave to acess faith schools is shit . People
Slate religion , yet there is clearly
Something in the culture of faith schools that drives higher performance

I can’t lie and attend church purely because it’s something that I hold dear to my heart

That sounds wierd I know

I don’t think secular is the opposite of religious. I think I want my child to be educated in my faith. And I think the State is doing what it can to support that.

And that makes you enormously privileged and lucky. That you don’t seem to recognise that is fairly shocking. The state does not do this for the majority of people, and could not hope to do so (and neither should it as religious segregation does not enhance social cohesion or tolerance).

There is also the hypocrisy of supporting a system that disadvantages poor children and those with SEN, while at the same time professing Christian values and condemning the OP. If you are cool with knowing you are promoting a system known to discriminate against the vulnerable, then I’m very curious how you reconcile that with your Christianity.

There is also the hypocrisy of supporting a system that disadvantages poor children and those with SEN, while at the same time professing Christian values and condemning the OP. If you are cool with knowing you are promoting a system known to discriminate against the vulnerable, then I’m very curious how you reconcile that with your Christianity.

I am at sea here. I have no intention of sending my child to any school that does that. The admissions criteria for the Catholic school I am looking at prioritise Catholic faith. They don’t say you can’t attend if you are poor or have a special need.

I can’t. I need to send my child to a Catholic school.

No you don't. No more than I need to send my child to the best school by academic performance. You want to send your child to a Catholic school, and I want to send my child to my closest school that performs well, and also happens to be Catholic.

You're happy to maintain a discriminatory status quo in order to get what you want for your child- as a previous poster has mentioned, because the system is weighted in your favour. I'm happy to accept the status quo and try and meet the entry requirements to get what I want for my child. You can try all you like to take the moral high ground but it's all semantics and air. I'm aware of my privilege and the privilege of those around me- you need to open your eyes.

“I am at sea here. I have no intention of sending my child to any school that does that. The admissions criteria for the Catholic school I am looking at prioritise Catholic faith”

Before I waste time explaining, do you really not know or are you being disingenuous? Do you really not know how back door selection works

You have no respect for that. I can’t help that you are are a bigot.

Now name calling doesn't help anything.

I get that your faith is important and you want a Catholic education for your child.

What I object to is your inability to acknowledge your privileged position (because you have priority over the OP for catholic schools and equal priority to her in all others). You have more choices, whether you'd consider them or not. You have priority access in a lot of better rated schools.

We all have preferences in education. I would never want and never intend for my child to be educated in a school rated less than Outstanding. Unfortunately I don't have that right.

I don't see why your right to a Catholic education trumps anyone else's right to a good one.

I am at sea here. I have no intention of sending my child to any school that does that. The admissions criteria for the Catholic school I am looking at prioritise Catholic faith. They don’t say you can’t attend if you are poor or have a special need.

And those criteria serve to make Catholic schools less likely (and CofE schools even less likely) to admit children who are poor and have SEN, compared to the communities in which they live. I referenced one report up thread, and there are others out there.

All selective systems, whether by faith or academic ability or talent, have the effect of social selection even if that is not the objective. Supporting and promoting those systems implies you’re fine with the inequality.

The schools know that. The church knows that. Plenty of the parents know that. And yet they do it anyway.

Your ‘need’ (want) for a state-funded faith education for your children apparently trumps theirs to equal access to education. And know you know that, if you honestly didn’t before.

All selective systems, whether by faith or academic ability or talent, have the effect of social selection even if that is not the objective. Supporting and promoting those systems implies you’re fine with the inequality

AMEN

I haven’t read the full thread so apologies if this has been suggested already:

Start going to church, get your child baptised and consider converting yourself/ves. Attend regularly and make yourself known as a family.

Apply. If you are successful, happy days. If not keep attending and stay on the waiting list until a place becomes available.

Far too few people consider it an option to take the primary school they are offered but to keep trying for a place at their preferred school. Places can and do become available, sometimes even before the first day of term but certainly at some point.

If your catholic high schools are good it will be a massive advantage to be in a feeder primary.

@seaweedandmarchingband yup I agree!! The child will be taught what they don't believe in. What is the point? I don't understand...

There are plenty of schools that don't teach faith. If they are no good then maybe do something about it.
Happy enough to tear lumps out of Catholic schools but want to send their kids to them.... Bit confusing!!

JassyRadlett

Because the children aren’t Catholic in the same proportions? Right. That isn’t my fault or my child’s fault. The faith is open to all. I would like there to be more faith schools, but I am not going to compromise on my child’s faith and her education within that faith. You don’t respect religion, so you don’t empathise with that. Again, not my fault.

I don't see why your right to a Catholic education trumps anyone else's right to a good one.

It doesn’t. Not all Catholic schools are good. They are open to Catholic children. Nobody is trumping anybody. Just children entitled to be educated within their faith. I think the people who have a problem with that have a problem with faith.

No you don't. No more than I need to send my child to the best school by academic performance. You want to send your child to a Catholic school, and I want to send my child to my closest school that performs well, and also happens to be Catholic.

I am going to leave this thread now because you just repel me. I can’t have this conversation without getting angry.

Because the children aren’t Catholic in the same proportions? Right. That isn’t my fault or my child’s fault. The faith is open to all. I would like there to be more faith schools, but I am not going to compromise on my child’s faith and her education within that faith. You don’t respect religion, so you don’t empathise with that.

You are inventing things wildly and being incredibly rude. I hugely support your support to practise whatever faith you wish and raise your children in that faith.

I do not agree with the taxpayer funding it, particularly if the taxpayer is funding only certain faiths. I am perfectly happy for either you or your faith to fund your desire for a faith education. But I firmly believe that the provision of state services should not be discriminatory, particularly against the most vulnerable.

I am going to leave this thread now because you just repel me. I can’t have this conversation without getting angry.

I don’t see what’s so repellent about that quote, but it’s clear that you can’t cope with having your assumptions and privilege questioned.

Can people please stop bringing up France as an example of all schools being secular. I've taught in France, it is not like that. French Catholic schools fall into two categories, both are state funded. Yes, they are called 'private' schools, but that doesn't mean they are outside of state funding and control. Teachers' salaries, for example, are paid directly by the State as for state schools. The day to day working of the school is paid for by the equivalent of the LA.

I didn't bother. We're not religious.
One of the criteria for being accepted to our school is being in the catchment area so the children meet the rules in that respect.
I wouldn't have gone around pretending to be into Catholicism to get whatever certificates it is you're supposed to show, I just didn't include any on application.

Just children entitled to be educated within their faith.

Children. Are. Not. Entitled. To. Be. Educated. Within. Their. Faith.

That is a point of fact. Some people are lucky that local historical provision matches their (largely Christian) faith. Those people are both lucky and privilege. It is not an entitlement.

I think the people who have a problem with that have a problem with faith.

I cannot speak for others. I have a problem with inequality, and I have a problem with taxpayers funding privileges for only certain faiths.