I’m so fed up with all this vegan wankery

[TitaniaQueenOfTheFairies]

To all you actual vegans, amazing, I wish you a long and happy life.

I am just so fed up with veganism taking over the world, when I have yet to come across an actual one. *edited to say that some places in the world don’t have a choice

Restaurants falling over themselves with vegan menus offering fake meat and plastic cheese.

Veganuary - people just going to the supermarket and buying fake meat, rather than actually trying to eat differently.

People eating ‘vegan food’. Just eat an apple, or a carrot with houmous or any other naturally occurring food that an animal hasn’t produced. It’s not hard.

And I can’t even begin with all the plant based twattery. Many people have been quietly eating less or no meat, fish, eggs & dairy for many years and have had no need to pontificate about it.

I know I am probably being unreasonable but I just need to say it.

wejammin, I guess that at least 98% of UK population eat an omnivore diet, the rest mostly being vegetarian and a tiny amount being vegan. It is normal for humans to eat animal proteins; we have done so for aeons. It enabled us to grow our brains and intelligence. Remarkable achievement, actually.

I appreciate that, as a vegan, you are 'not perfect'. None of us are, we all do our best to eat in a healthy way.

It just seems that the push going on at the moment to force everyone to forego animal proteins is very disturbing. You are right, there isn't room for rational debate and actually, it is a personal choice what someone chooses to eat, what diet they prefer to follow. I have no wish to impose my personal opinions on anyone else's food choices.

The vitriol that follows a vegan who becomes (usually for health reasons) an ex-vegan is both shocking and unique (watch some of the 'ex-vegan youtubes videos ). No other dietary pattern seems to attract extreme reactions when someone stops doing it and switches to something else. Vegans even despise vegetarians for heavens sake!

I mean, I've done loads of different diets over the decades and no-one gives a sh1t or judged me when I stopped/changed.

What is the answer? Mutual respect and acceptance on all sides I guess.

MyGhastIsFlabbered
@JinglingHellsBells being vegan is about doing the best you can, and accepting none of us can be 100% cruelty free. But does knowing you can't be completely cruelty free mean you shouldn't even try? I know because of my de idiom to be vegan less animals have died, that's good enough for me

Yes, but it is only vegans who judge everyone else, isn't it? Every single plate of food, whether it be vegan or omnivore, has caused the death of some sort of sentient beings. However, it is only vegans who accuse non-vegans of causing the death of other creatures, they turn a blind eye to their own role. Seems hypocritical, doesn't it?

The best way you can be 'cruelty free' or 'reduce cruelty' is to encourage restorative, regenerative farming practices, buy locally produced animal proteins and veggies/fruits in season, use cars less, reduce, reuse, repair stuff, limit single-use plastic use.

I am trying to find a job that is local and I can walk to (two years and no success yet!). I am happy to walk for an hour to work and did this for three months last year temporarily. I would love something permanent though, it would mean I would not need my car any more.

I am finding the conversation here about the loss of vegetarian dishes for vegan dishes in restaurants interesting. Never realised. Wetherspoons have just launched a new menu which includes more vegetarian AND vegan choices. They're pretty good like that (also got a new 10oz rump steak dish - I had it last Tuesday ).

@GoldenKelpie
The problem is it can't accurately be described as 'personal choice' when an animal is killed due to the choice. It's no longer personal, it involves another life.

If you are killing dogs to eat, people would be up in arms. We are all so socially conditioned, by the massive advertising budgets of the meat and dairy industries who WANT OUR MONEY!!!!

@goldenkelpie

I think people sometimes feel 'judged' intentionally by the vegan. But I honestly think way more often than that it feels like that due to a conflict in the mind of the meat eater.

Hardly any vegans are vegan from birth. I ate meat the vast majority of mine. I was in your shoes, I get the judged feeling- but in hindsight it was actually I didn't feel 100% ok with getting animals killed for a fleeting taste. (And maybe you genuinely couldn't care less about animals and I'm completely wrong here) but in my case I've had dogs and cats that felt close to family members, so the conflict that was there did make me feel uncomfortable and maybe 'judged' when that wasn't that persons intention.

I mean vegans don't exactly get anything out of people going vegan or eating a steak as such do they?

I think it has to be described as a personal choice, because it certainly isn't (or should not be) anyone else's.

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime

Ok, but say there was a thing in the news local to you about a group of people rounding up dogs and cats and cooking them. Obviously theft, but that aside, is that still personal choice?

If you are killing dogs to eat, people would be up in arms

Dogs are eaten in other cultures, I can't say as it bothers me, though I suspect they would taste that great, carnivores generally don't.

Obviously rounding up people's pets would be unreasonable but eating dog per se seems fine if that's your thing.

There are lots of things we no longer eat that we used to as a matter of routine, seabirds for example, again I suspect because they don't taste very nice, certainly I'm told by those who have tried it Guga (fledgling gannets) taste rank. On the other hand we rarely eat rabbit anymore, stopping hunting them was a bit of a disaster at the time really, and they are perfectly pleasant.

@GoldenKelpie I don't judge anyone for what they choose to eat (well except marmite and celery because they're just grim!).

But even with the best farming practices if you eat meat something that doesn't NEED to be killed is killed for your plate. I can't see that that's reducing cruelty as such.

We'd all love to live an ethical, organic, environmentally friendly existence but it's not always possible. I'm a single mum working a not much above NMW job...I can't afford to buy ethical most of the time.

Clayplease
Ok, but say there was a thing in the news local to you about a group of people rounding up dogs and cats and cooking them. Obviously theft, but that aside, is that still personal choice?

Yes, because they chose to do it. A personal choice means a choice made by the person who chose to do a thing. If no duress was involved, then it was their personal choice to round up, kill and cook dogs and cats.

Other people may think it a very poor choice, but that does not make it less the choice of the person who did it: personal, theirs.

Clayplease
GoldenKelpie
The problem is it can't accurately be described as 'personal choice' when an animal is killed due to the choice. It's no longer personal, it involves another life.

If you are killing dogs to eat, people would be up in arms. We are all so socially conditioned, by the massive advertising budgets of the meat and dairy industries who WANT OUR MONEY!!!!

Mmmm, its all very first world isn't it? What people would be up in arms? Try living in grinding poverty where eating any animal, whether a dog or rat would be something to be grateful for. Why? Because eating animal protein is healthier than eating vegetables, long term. Vegans miss out on crucial nutrients only available from animal proteins and fats. In the first world that is their choice, in the third world it is a different matter.

In the first world vegans have the option of purchasing (expensive) supplements, imported veg and fruits (huge carbon footprint!), and weird highly processed 'vegan' meats and cheeses. In the third world, malnutrition is very serious and responsible for infant mortality and chronic ill health.

Killing animals for nutrition is something man has done for aeons. You only have to look at early cave paintings (France) to see the fantastic hunting pictures. Hunting was crucial to continued success of tribes and groups; it enabled them to be successful, to breed and expand, invent implements to improve their way of life, increase their brain size generation after generation.

Personally, I am grateful to live in the first world and eat meat that is caught, slaughtered, and prepared for me. However, I would definitely be prepared to kill animals of any type to feed my family and keep us healthy. Would you?

@GoldenKelpie I'm sorry, I'm sure you're probably a nice person IRL but some of the stuff you're saying is horrifying and honestly, a bit sociopathic.

Go back and critically evaluate your own comments. They are horrific.

No, if you care about animal cruelty it is NOT, as you say, better to eat locally slaughtered dead animals than to eat no dead animals. It is INSANE to suggest that just because a process is imperfect and some animals may inadvertently be harmed in growing plants that this means that it's morally equivalent to intentionally breed animals for torture and slaughter, for no good reason.

Your comments about nutrition are so woefully ill informed that they border on fiction.

But by far the worst and most offensive of your comments are your sneering use of the "third world" to justify your own hedonistic dietary choices. We grow feed for 56 billion land animals at the expense of growing crops that would feed humans. YOUR dietary choices mean that animals are overbred and, crucially, vast amounts of crops are grown to feed those animals for slaughter while humans starve and you have the AUDACITY to somehow use their plight to make a moral case for the thing that is contributing to their plight.

I know we all love to hate on "preachy vegans" here but your "moral high horse" comments are beyond the pale and unbelievably offensive.

Ziraphale, please don't apologise for your opinions, you have a right to them and I am happy to read them.

Joyful, Ill have a look for your book recommendation "Sapiens". Here is link to interesting talk by former vegan Amber L O'Hearn about how eating meat led to human brain development.

I don’t really mind, I’ve got no intention of going veggie or vegan but I do admire their principles, ultimately I put my own liking for cheese, proper milk etc above any principles I might like to have! Maybe makes me selfish in their book but ultimately I’m free to eat what I want, as are they.

If I were veggie/vegan I am not sure I’d like all the prevalent of fake meats as opposed to proper vegetable based products - eg I love a bean/veggie burger or a bean chilli but not sure Of eat fake meat ones, veggie/vegan or not and if the choice of veggie ones is removed in favour of meat I reckon I’d feel a tad irked.

@Ziraphale excellent response.

@GoldenKelpie
It is 'first world' but I am living in the first world as it seems you are, so we have the choice. It's a bit like saying 'Lions eat meat though!' To justify our own actions (not necessary V necessary.)

As Ziraphale says, It's our meat eating western ways which is keeping other countries in poverty! Think about how much vegetation a cow needs to eat its whole (albeit short) life till it is killed- the same amount of vegetable matter could feed many more mouths than the number of steaks do at the end of it. Also water usage is worth looking into for the same reason.

I absolutely agree that meat has been important in human development in history, that doesn't mean we need to keep doing it though. There are many things which we used to do and no longer need to.

Regarding the dogs question, are you really saying no one would care if they started killing and eating dogs here? 😁

Have you seen the numbers of signatures on the petition against the Yulin Dog Festival every year?

If you are killing dogs to eat, people would be up in arms

Apparently tastes like a lamb🤔 Tbh I would taste any animal. My taste buds are a curious bunch

@IAmALazyArse

That kind of supports my point really that there is no difference between dogs and pigs (pigs are proven to be as intelligent as a 3 year old child though - dogs often not!!) It's just conditioning by society/ meat industry.

You'd eat anything, but I'd bet my house that everyone in the UK wouldn't happily eat a dog.

Apparently tastes like a lamb

Hadn't heard that, I'm totally up for trying dog if it tastes like lamb.

I guess it makes a change from everything supposedly tasting like chicken. Except humans of course, we taste like pork apparently.

I would taste a human given half a chance😂

Avoid the brain and spinal column, *IAmALazyArse', eating them causes CJD.

@ArnoldWhatshisknickers I will be careful 😁

Soy and quinoa both contain the exact same number of essential amino acids as beef.

Hasn't the huge rise in demand for quinoa in the West caused lots of problems for the people who actually produce it?

Still, as long as we get what we need so that we can pontificate about how it's objectively wrong for humans to kill animals for food.....

is 'first world' but I am living in the first world as it seems you are, so we have the choice.

Yes, but some people argue that the act of humans using animals for food is inherently wrong in itself.