Shamima Begum....where do you stand?

[LeahSMS]

What are your thoughts?

AIBU to think she was only a child but unfortunately she’s now considered as a threat so therefore she will never return it’s not only about her safety but the people around her?

Tell me your thoughts

You obviously don't understand what severe grooming, brainwashing and daily torture would do to a person's mind.

Daily torture - when she was in the UK and decided to leave?!

I do believe it’s inhuman to not be phased by such atrocities and nothing or no one will ever convince me otherwise

[quote ActuallyItsEugene]@GreytExpectations But what could she have possibly expected when going over there?!

It's not painted as an 18-30 holiday for Christ sake.

You choose to go and join barbarians, who carry out violent, vicious attacks and expect them not to do it to you?[/quote]
Do you not understand what it means to be groomed or brainwashed?? Seriously. They convinced her, as a CHILD that it'd all be great for her to come there. These men have ways of getting into children's minds and making them believe whatever they say. Bet you'd think differently if a girl was groomed to join a sex slavery ring and then helped recruit others.

She's entitled to an appeal, a fair hearing. Those are the lawful rules of our democracy and justice system, and justice is blind.

"She cant be stripped of her british citizenship as that leaves her stateless."

She already has been. She is stateless. She wants it back, that's what the appeal is about

Daily torture - when she was in the UK and decided to leave?!

Ffs you know I mean once she got there. You are just being obtuse to try and prove a point. I'm saying she should face consequences but here, in the UK where they can also treat her psychologically and undo the brainwashing.

Where is the source for her supposedly being tortured? In the Sky interviews, she mentioned that she had suffered as a result of IS-held territory falling (in terms of material hardship) but always spoke very positively about her time in IS territory when it was securely held.

I agree that she deserves the right to a fair hearing and should wait here while she gets it.

It does irritate me though that we'll likely have to pay to get her back here and then offer some sort financial support whilst she waits for the hearing, unless I'm mistaken and she's planning to fund herself?

I suspect the people who are angry she's coming back correlate strongly with the group of people who are angry when we don't deport foreign criminals.

She's our problem, not Syria's. She should face the full weight of the law here, we can't dump her on another country.

Didn't multiple girls from her school year run away at the same time? The rest are dead, I believe. What was happening at that school?!

I think she was failed. She was 15, and she was groomed. Yes, I agree that it is harder to sympathise with a teenager who is groomed by a terrorist group or a criminal gang than a teacher or pop star, but it is the same psychological mechanism, except carried out by a team of people who have made a profession of it. I think it's vital to note that. Isis had people whose specific role was to gain the trust of western teens. Is it any surprise that they might have becen skilled at it?

Meanwhile, many, many teenage boys who joined ISIS in order to kill people are back in the UK. It escapes our notice, because their ashamed families never released their names. We only know Begum's because she ran off to get married.

She was married to someone within a couple of weeks of landing in Syria. Whatever she was expecting from marriage, I doubt that she got it. We know what ISIS are like to women who are not muslims or the 'wrong' kind of muslims. I don't believe there is such a thing as a organisation of men who rape and enslave women and then morph into radical feminists who believe in a wife's right to say no.

And finally, Begum is our problem. We deport foreign-born men and women who commit crimes back to their home countries. Why shouldn't Syria be entitled to do the same?

Can the govt appeal against the appeal decision?

Answering my own post.
Just on the news, yes the govt can appeal and probably will. So could go on for years.

@PotholeParadise

Didn't multiple girls from her school year run away at the same time? The rest are dead, I believe. What was happening at that school?!

I think she was failed. She was 15, and she was groomed. Yes, I agree that it is harder to sympathise with a teenager who is groomed by a terrorist group or a criminal gang than a teacher or pop star, but it is the same psychological mechanism, except carried out by a team of people who have made a profession of it. I think it's vital to note that. Isis had people whose specific role was to gain the trust of western teens. Is it any surprise that they might have becen skilled at it?

Meanwhile, many, many teenage boys who joined ISIS in order to kill people are back in the UK. It escapes our notice, because their ashamed families never released their names. We only know Begum's because she ran off to get married.

She was married to someone within a couple of weeks of landing in Syria. Whatever she was expecting from marriage, I doubt that she got it. We know what ISIS are like to women who are not muslims or the 'wrong' kind of muslims. I don't believe there is such a thing as a organisation of men who rape and enslave women and then morph into radical feminists who believe in a wife's right to say no.

And finally, Begum is our problem. We deport foreign-born men and women who commit crimes back to their home countries. Why shouldn't Syria be entitled to do the same?

Completly agree with this. You have explained the grooming aspect well, it is interesting to wonder what was going on at that school

Shamima Begum didn't live a quiet, submissive life as an ISIS wife. She worked in the Al Khansaa brigade in Raqqa, the female wing of the Hisbah religious police. They were armed enforcers who policed, tortured and violently assaulted other women for infringing islamic rules on dress and conduct.

None of that alters the fact that she is a British citizen, and therefore Britain's responsibility and Britain's problem. We have no right to expect other countries to bear the cost and inconvenience of housing our home-grown criminals. She should come home, be fairly tried and dealt with here. That's the right and decent thing to do.

Whatever she was expecting from marriage, I doubt that she got it.

In her words:
"At first it was nice, it was like how they showed it in the videos, like 'come, make a family together'."

"Then afterwards, things got harder, you know. When we lost Raqqa we had to keep moving and moving and moving. The situation got difficult."

I doubt she had the sort of marriage that I or the average British woman would enjoy but it does seem that she found what she was looking for and only lost it as a consequence of those regions being liberated.

@Gronky

Where is the source for her supposedly being tortured? In the Sky interviews, she mentioned that she had suffered as a result of IS-held territory falling (in terms of material hardship) but always spoke very positively about her time in IS territory when it was securely held.

Are you really that naive? Do you honestly think that the mastermind, brutal men behind ISIS would be treating their women with respect? Or they would allow them to have the freewill to make their own choices? Of course she isn't going to speak badly about then when she is still at risk of them coming after her. It's pretty damn obvious that ISIS men have certain ways of manipulating their women.

I think she should be brought back and then a decision made about charges, the same as the boys who have returned from fighting. I don't know enough about her case and don't trust the media to tell the full truth that way leave it to a trial to decide what, id any, punishment there should be.

She can stay where she is. Heartess and cold. I heve no sympathy for her whatsoever. She was happy to run off there, now she's stuck in a camp she wants to return to Britain. Tough. She made her bed.

she made her bed literally now she needs to lie in it. She should be as far away from here as possible i don't want my taxpayers money keeping her in jail in the UK. Anyway she is Bangladeshi now.

She acted in haste to join a fundamentalist group now she needs to repent at leisure

Having just consulted Google her husband who was 20 when he went to join isis faces 6 years in prison in the Netherlands if he comes back to Europe.
Doesn't seem a level playing field does it.

I think there are some big questions about what was happening at the school and the role of her father. I do think she was groomed but also the severity of what she did can’t be ignored.

On the other hand, I don’t think you can fully hold her responsible for what she did over there. I suspect there was a constant threat of violence and if she didn’t comply with what she was told, she’d be killed. I don’t think we know yet whether she was groomed and got the shock of her life when she got there or whether she was a willing participant in atrocities. Presumably it would be possible to rehabilitate if the former but much harder with the latter. I’m torn really as it probably is our problem but she is potentially very dangerous.

I don’t think the grooming examples of Gemma and the Rotherham girls are the best comparison. Something closer might be a 15 year old being groomed for espionage or being a freedom fighter would be closer.

She worked in the Al Khansaa brigade in Raqqa, the female wing of the Hisbah religious police

And how do you think she was convinced to do that? So say she was promised this lovely married life and then she got there and just happily skipped along to go murder people? No, that's most likly not how it happened. There was some form of persuading that took place and it definitely wasn't a nice, mutual conversation. This is a terrorist organisation who know how to get into children's mind, after all.

You could argue that every criminal or terrorist in the world has been “groomed” - if they had different upbringing or experiences they could have been a decent person too.

So should no-one ever face any consequences?

I think she was old enough and had access to enough information to be held accountable.

In an ideal world she’d be brought back, charged, investigated, go through years of intensive therapy, monitored and protected 24/7 for rest of her life.

This would cost £millions and in reality that money would have to be taken from more deserving people who need it. Is that fair?

*she made her bed literally now she needs to lie in it. She should be as far away from here as possible i don't want my taxpayers money keeping her in jail in the UK. Anyway she is Bangladeshi now.

She acted in haste to join a fundamentalist group now she needs to repent at leisure*

Totally agree. I dont care where she ends up, just don't bring her back over here.

I think that she was a child when she left, and is now not much more than a child and has already lost 3 children.

I think she's learnt her lesson, been punished enough, and should now be allowed home.

Do you honestly think that the mastermind, brutal men behind ISIS would be treating their women with respect?

It doesn't align with my personal concept of a man being respectful towards women but, on her personal terms, yes. I believe she found the concept of rewarded submission appealing:

"It's made me stronger, tougher. I married my husband. I wouldn't have found someone like him back in the UK."

"I had my kids. I did have a good time there, it's just that at the end things got harder and I couldn't take it anymore."