Shamima Begum....where do you stand?

[LeahSMS]

What are your thoughts?

AIBU to think she was only a child but unfortunately she’s now considered as a threat so therefore she will never return it’s not only about her safety but the people around her?

Tell me your thoughts

That she shouldnt ever be allowed back

Why not? Why should she be some other country’s problem???

Yes. Some people are violent psychopaths and women are among them too.

To those who would condemn her, think back to what you were doing at 15: dating boys you are now glad you didn’t get pregnant with or marry; acting out in class and now wishing you’d paid more attention; thinking subjects are boring and useless when now you’d love to study them just for fun; contemplating sneaking out at night because your friends were doing it but too scared (or maybe you did and took the risk?); wanting to have sex but being terrified (or maybe you did?); having an inner core of rebellion which is the natural precursor of adulthood, pushing the boundaries of curfews, homework, boys whatever. Aren’t you glad that luck played a part in resisting these things? Or maybe you didn’t and you have your own regrets?

Now layer on that the lavish attention of older men who share the deep religion of your own family. Add in a few gifts and the promise of a life independent from oppressive parents/school/social mores, the gift of being an adult before your time. An adult relationship at 15, treated like an adult rather than the child you are to your parents, school, society. The promise of handsome partners and a place in paradise whatever happens. They appear to offer total adult freedom.

Kids don’t see the dangers. They don’t read the small print, however horrific. Their brains haven’t properly developed yet in relation to empathy and risk taking.

If the school had intervened and sent those letters direct to parents, they wouldn’t have gone. If social services had been warned, they wouldn’t have gone. If someone had given them proper counselling and education about the life their friend had just chosen, they wouldn’t have gone. They were children. They needed help.

We failed those girls. We owe those girls. Shame on Priti Patel.

If the school had intervened and sent those letters direct to parents, they wouldn’t have gone. If social services had been warned, they wouldn’t have gone. If someone had given them proper counselling and education about the life their friend had just chosen, they wouldn’t have gone

Could you expand on why you're quite so confident they "wouldn't have gone"? Short of being physically prevented by the authorities, that is, and then the howls of outrage about "illegal detention" would have been deafening

I realise it's terribly convenient to insist everything's always someone else's fault, but perhaps you could also tell us why you're so sure her family knew nothing about what she was doing, bearing in mind the close control her community tend to have of their daughters, and that at least one of her friends had already gone to Syria?

She's made her bed and unfortunately has to lie in it.

The safety of others is more important than her, no matter how understanding of the circumstances and how sorry for her, you feel.

@Puzzledandpissedoff - because her family was outraged, because her family (even if not outraged) should have been subject to proper social services, school and police scrutiny, because the sister’s passport could have been hidden or removed, because the police would have been involved and that, coupled work social services, and all the possible care/protection/border control orders at their disposal, would have kept those girls safe, from themselves as well as others.

@Puzzledandpissedoff and if her family had known, then it’s even more clear a case of grooming/abuse, isn’t it?

"We failed those girls. We owe those girls. Shame on Priti Patel."

I do not see how we or even Priti Patel failed them at all. As for referring to them as children, that may be the legal term, but I and probably many others reading this were working at the age of 16.
They joined a recognised terrorist organisation, quite possibly one of the worst in modern history, the atrocities which they committed were well documented.

So much naivety on here

@andyoldlabour
Did you think the Rotherham girls knew what they were getting themselves into too?

The only thing she is sorry for is being exposed. When she thought she could get away with it she was still spouting off about how the decadent West deserved to be blown up. Then you don't have the right to an easy life here in the decent West. I don't think age is a factor here.

This is a dispassionate legal situation rather than an emotional one. And no, I couldn't feel other than heartfelt sympathy for any mother who had suffered the agony of losing a child: in her case perhaps more than one. Equally, if she represents a direct threat to the citizens of this country then this needs to be addressed and dealt with.

But the issue is actually dispassionate, and about more than simply people's responses both to her plight and the part she had to play in bringing it about. It boils down to international law, and whether it's a legally recognized breach of said law to leave someone stateless where they had been your citizen to begin with.

This alone is the area where the questions start. All else is just feeling, and feeling has no place in questions of legality (unfortunate though this sometimes is).

Did you think the Rotherham girls knew what they were getting themselves into too?

No similarity whatever.

The Rotherham girls were victims, pure and simple. They did not travel voluntarily to a place run by armed criminals in order to assist them with their rape and slaughter of innocent people.

There is an absolute analogy - both were children, both were groomed. Neither really knew the consequences of their actions.

She should never be allowed to return. She gave up that privilege.

Why do you think recruitment is so young for military services - with the army you can put in for your application at 15. I didn’t have an understanding of the complexities of war at that age I doubt many children do

This age group is incredibly easy to manipulate especially those who feel disenfranchised (which the army have often recruited)

Rotherham victims were carefully picked, gangs pick their new recruits carefully, abusers choose the easiest to manipulate and who have less support around them

Manipulation of children happens on so many levels - just because we are shocked by their actions we can’t separate those who have just been victims because many could have been easily manipulated to do something terrible especially when there is no one around them to guide them in an honest way

She knew exactly what she was doing

She was 15 not 7 ffs.

She made her bed in my opinion and now she should lie in it.
Why should she be allowed back?

Because she is a British Citizen and when she was recruited she was a child - concerning that she was able to travel and get to the point she did

At 15 you fully understood that some adults can and will manipulated you if they can and you was above being manipulated ?

Thankfully the law protects children or rather laws are in place to protect children from manipulation

She has shown zero remorse.
The only thing she appears to be annoyed about is the audacity of the UK not wanting her back.

She needs to stay where she is and face a trial there.

How do you know she has shown zero remorse

Reporting ? Makes a better story her being evil

How do you know she isn’t suffering from PTSD or depression (when emotions are so often blunted)

Makes a better story of her being evil?

Shamima is that you?

She is fucking evil. The press don't have to make a better story so we think she is evil.
She went to Syria of her own accord.
She has witnessed the most evil regime being carried out, defended the Manchester bombings etc.
I literally couldn't give any less of a shit that she was a child. She was 15 and knew full well what she was doing.
She needs to stay under her rock until she is able to stand trial.
She only wants to come back as she knows she is up shit creek without a paddle when that time comes.

Oh so you were above being manipulated at 15

Well I don’t personally believe people are evil it’s too simplistic and would take away people being guilty if they are evil they can’t help it - people they may commit aberrant acts and reasons why are always complex

Would she have just left everything if no contact had been made no coercion from others

A small, observation, zzzzzzzz12345: the fact that some terrorist supporters' families appear to be appalled at what they've done is no guarantee that they actually are. Amira Abase's father was just one example, tearfully clutching his Arsenal teddy when he knew perfectly well what he himself had encouraged ... except that was allegedly everyone else's fault too

FWIW I do agree that the family should have been under much more scrutiny, but I'm also very aware of what follows if this is done; the shrieks of victimisation and Islamophobia can be heard from here to hades

For me, none of this moral relativism for anything against the higher aim of keeping the vast majority safe, and that includes the countless muslims who've suffered dreadfully too. But the useful idiots who seek to excuse terrorism really can't have it both ways; either they accept the need for the authorities' involvement, in which case it's reasonable to criticise when they get it wrong, or they carry right on with the victim narrative and the evil doers take the blame for their own choices

Sorry, that should have read "none of this moral relativism counts for anything" ...

EnthusiasmIsDisturbed

In that case I hope they house her next door to you should she ever come home. If she isn't evil etc as I would rather not take that chance

And at 15 yes I think I was above being manipulated enough to join ISIS.
Maybe could have been convinced to try a cigarette but I'm pretty sure leaving for Syria would have been my line.