16 year old son is mean.

[Fabulousdahlink]

Birthdays christmas etc really important in our home. Son has money from savings and has a pt job. Failed to buy his sister a xmas gift, for my 50th only offered to buy the card whilst expecting 14yr sister to buy the gifts, now discovered he has not bought or paid glft or her birthday on sunday. Fornat is thr same each time...when asked if he has planned money for a gift says yes, sometimes lies and says he has ordered a gift ' but it hasnt arrived' or just plain expects the adults in his life me , dad, granny or aunty to buy a last minute gift so the person doesnt get left out...but he doesnt pay for shop for or pay back the money for the gift.

What do I do ? He knows it is not ok to treat people this way...but it is sfill a pattern. He's been told directly by the adults in his life its not ok. A bar of choc and 59p card from home bargains would be acceltable. He just doesnt give despite always being treated well on his own special days. We are supposed to be going out for dinner for his sisters birthday and I'm so disguted with him I dont want to go. However, that lunishes my daughter and will also hurt her feelings again if I tell her the reason why.

We've told him and given him options ( tell us and you can pay back the cost of the gift etc) but he still persists in not being responsible for his own gift giving to direct family ( sister, mum and dad)
Advice needed please mumsnetters.

Leave him out of your daughters Birthday treat....if she wants offer DD to bring a friend instead....stop buying him Birthday and Xmas gifts...if he can't be bothered to put out reciprocal care..why should heck should he expect it from you? Stop covering for and enabling his self centred behaviour, that path leads to narcissism, he seems to lack empathy and care for you all! Nip it in the bud but be aware it might be too late!

Leave him out of your daughters Birthday treat....if she wants offer DD to bring a friend instead....stop buying him Birthday and Xmas gifts...if he can't be bothered to put out reciprocal care..why should heck should he expect it from you?

He’s 16!!!

I think the same has been said by lots of people but a family collaboration to COMPLETELY IGNORE his next birthday would be in order. If he doesn't actually care, then you'll know it's just not his thing and not take offence but not ever bother on his account again!

Exactly he’s 16 not 7. He can get married in Scotland.

I haaaate this.
It's a birthday and Christmas. It's not about giving and receiving gifts!

My MIL is very materialistic and goes ape shit if people don't buy her/her husband/her son gifts for special occasions.

Why is it not enough to give a card or just say happy birthday?
Stop thinking about material things and just enjoy being a family.

I never expected my children to buy me or their siblings gifts. I don't like meanness say an unwilling less to lend something to a sibling or help in some way but for me gift gifting doesn't fall into this. My elder two now buy gifts and this is something that has just evolved they are 20 and 18. Often something silly, a joke between them. I think card giving is going out of fashion amoungst the younger generation. I think this is a bit sad I love getting cards in the post!

I would stop remembering to get him stuff. I'm definitely of the same thinking as you OP, it's not even about money like you said a home made card even that had a bit of effort in it even and a bar of your favourite chocolate.

I think someone mentioned this already but it's really not about money, it's about teaching your kids to put some effort into their relationships with friends and family and value them. This will be the boy who turns into the man that expects his future wife to remember all his family's birthdays and buy them presents that he can sign his name to

My brother is useless at present buying and doesn't put effort into relationships. It doesn't occur to him. But if you invite him to something he will go out of his way to show up. He just needs to be asked. It doesn't mean he doesn't care about his family, he just sort of forgets about them. (I think he has autism but it wasn't picked up when he was young.) I don't take offence and I don't make a fuss of his birthday.

My other brother is more NT and also shit at birthday presents. But gets in touch off his own back to apologise for being out of touch. And is massively randomly generous here and there (with time/effort as well as money). So we all know that we are there for each other we just don't do it to a calendar.

Maybe your DS is becoming an adult who doesn't really do birthdays, he has always been in a family that do but that wasn't his choice iyswim? If he is kind and polite and respectful and shows this in other ways than giving a gift, I think you have done a good job raising him OP.

Maybe he just doesn’t ‘do’ presents. I’m the same and always have been - hate the stress of buying presents, hate receiving presents, find both really weirdly embarrassing. To be fair, I do insist nobody buys me presents either though and always have - my brother and I never bought each other presents and I don’t really know many siblings who do to be honest, especially when children/teenagers! Normally just given by parents and older relatives. Either way, I’d just tell him to not expect presents if he doesn’t want to give as it’s a two way thing. Maybe he’ll be like me and happy to be done with the whole thing!

I noticed OP you said they are important in our home - well clearly they aren't important to your son.

This is what I wondered.

@Fabulousdahlink, does your son care about receiving gifts? Does he ask for/have an expectation of gifts? Would he be bothered if others treated him the same way?

Some people don't care about gifts at birthdays or Christmasses, either for themselves or others.

I'm surprised that so many people don't expect/weren't expected to at least make a token present buying effort within their own family.

I remember being quite young and proud of buying my mum a present from my carefully saved up pocket money. It was a box of Black Magic and I'm thinking that my dad probably slipped some money over the counter without me seeing because I'm pretty sure i only handed over a few coins.

And my DC got to about 10 and then really wanted to join in gift giving with their pocket money. The first Christmas they did this they gave their dad a bottle opener and I got a musical cake slice. They were so proud of themselves.

It seems weird for a boy to get to 16 in a family where birthdays and the related gift giving is important not to get that. I'd just leave him to it and let your daughter do what she wants when it comes to his birthday. (yes, i realise that my previous comment was to ask daughter if she wanted his presence at her birthday meal and that isn't ideal so i take it back, thanks pp for pointing that out)

How about asking him if he wants to attend the meal? maybe he hates birthdays?

I really do not understand the big deal about birthdays, especially this trend for adults who have a huge big deal for a 'milestone' birthday and expect everyone they know to pay for it and buy them gifts. You see it on here every week, CFer relatives to hand over lists to their family with demands they buy them something on it as a gift or for their kids or pay thousands to go on trips with them because it's a 'milestone' birthday.

That said, I don't expect any big fuss for mine, either and I do give gifts and send cards - I like to make them.

So does your son? If so, it needs to be made clear to him that he can't expect gifts and others to make a fuss out of him and do nothing in return.

Do not micromanage him! Just nope! If he chooses not do so much as a bundle of flowers then he can be responsible for that.

OP, would your son make a fuss if his sister forget Xmas/ birthday presents for him?
I get the impression that birthday and Xmas presents are important to him; but only his birthday and Xmas presents. Perfectly happy to receive presents and effort from others but can’t be arsed to do it himself.

Hmmmm - my parents would have said this about my DB but what they couldn't see was that he panicked over buying the 'right' thing, spending the 'right' amount and it was easier for him to have a day or two of being told what a disappointment he was than the shame of doing the wrong thing..

If he actually had have bought a '59p card and a bar of chocolate' he would never have heard the end of it..

This isn't necessarily the case here, I know, but could he be feeling pressure to get it right?

And my DC got to about 10 and then really wanted to join in gift giving with their pocket money

I didn't permit this. I bought presents for my husband and one from my daughter to him, but I never expected her to pay. We simply said it was from both of us/from her. She helped pick. She did cards.

We simply didn't want her to spend her money on us. Still don't. I can't imagine taking a ten year olds pocket money. It's very easy to involve the kid in thr choice, and to say it's from both of you or from them.

Gifts for their friends are different.

Not everyone is actually into present buying and receiving - including my OH. He genuinely would be happy to receive nothing and give nothing. It's not a given that present/ card giving is the 'right' way. Perhaps your son sees things differently. If you think it's not that and it's just that he wants others to put the effort in then you need to stop enabling him and let him live with the consequences of his choices - he won't change unless you do. Stop checking on him, stop asking him what his plans are. Under no circumstances do anything 'last minute' or otherwise to make up for his lack of action. If he upsets your daughter then that is something for him to deal with. Unless she's really materialistic the actual upset will be about what this says about their relationship and not the actual item she would have received - and you need them to be able to work this through themselves as if you 'protect' now you may well just make things worse in the longer term. Personally I'd keep gift giving separate from the meal out.

Maybe he doesn’t like it? I don’t buy presents for anyone in my family except my young children and don’t expect anyone to buy for me.

TidyDancer, nope! Never got her bracelet back, but she forgave him. He's her twin, so she has to. They have an extra bond that nobody else shares or understands. 😉

He's very keen about the gifts he would like, and my thread isnt about the amount spent...it's the 'not making an effort cor others when he's happy to enjoy the effort others make for him' that is the hardest to swallow.

I wonder what sort of partner he will make for someone in the future if he cant see that a token gesture or bit of effort is required to acknowledge someones special day ! And no...theres no anxiety about the gift choice. We were discussing in advance what she would like and he volunteered to get the headphones as he knew which ones she meant...he just cba to keep the money back to buy them and cba to go and get them.

I understand that not everyone likes or 'does' birthdays for themselves...but he does like a fuss. Just only on his birthdays. Not for others.

I've also acknowledged that despite good modelled behaviour for years and a direct intervention last year of " its not ok" ...may not be enough. He might not change and that hurts, but may be the truth.

If I ask sibling if she wants him at the birthday event she will say yes, forgive him and still spend what little she has on him when he asks her too. I've had to say to her " dont give it...if you lend it...get it back". Thats not a plus positive note actually...I dont want her to be a push over financially . she needs more resilience to say " no. You have money...get it yourself".

Sigh what a mess.

I'm grateful for all the opinions though. Its given me more clarity before I make a decision.

I say again. If he doesn't give her a present under his own steam then pretend to forget him at xmas. If he can't empathise then he will have to learn through reality. After a short while of watching others open presents with none for him, then he might just get it. Talk about how it makes him feel and then give him presents. Short, sharp shock.

He sounds really selfish and mean. I'd say if you don't give a gift and a card then the rest of the family will just be giving you a card and mean it.
I wouldn't let him come to the sisters birthday do, why should he take the piss out of her by asking for money? People are going to end up really disliking him if he ends up being a total tightarse.

I've also acknowledged that despite good modelled behaviour for years and a direct intervention last year of " its not ok" ...may not be enough. He might not change and that hurts, but may be the truth.

I think a birthday and Christmas without any presents would make the point far more powerfully than words.

He’s more likely to change if he gets insight into what it feels to be the person without the presents.

Christ, my teenagers seldom buy each other presents and I've never thought much about it to be honest. As long as they are nice to the birthday girl/boy and wish them a happy birthday I'm happy and they're all fine with that too [shrug]